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Requests for Comment/Reorganization of Miraheze Add topic - The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. - Thanks for the input everyone! It is clear that the community endorses option C (merge with WikiTide). In addition to the plan laid out in the linked section, I would like to call upon the WikiTide board to maintain their commitment of transparency and to seek out community input prior to any user-facing changes.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the future brings. -- Void Whispers 01:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] Following concerns raised at the Community noticeboard about the direction of Miraheze Foundation and subsequent comments, it has become clear that a Request for Comments is needed to usher in the next chapter of Miraheze.

We are on the cusp and crossroads of meaningful change to Miraheze and the way it runs, but we should not take any steps without the people who make Miraheze what it is — which is to say you, the editors, and volunteers. Together, we will choose the legal corporation and group of people who run Miraheze, and set the direction for tomorrow, be it for unity, or for choice, or for greener pastures.

Three different not-for-profit corporations are in consideration for the continued operation of Miraheze, if you should choose to continue the project. Please consider the proposals below, and ask questions of each group, and select the organization where Miraheze's future lies. This is a unique RFC in that it is first-past-the-post; the proposal with the most support wins. Miraheze must choose a future path. If you do support the status quo, please vote for that option below.

If you see a future path not included, add it as an option on Proposal 1. Voting ends on December 31, 2023 at 23:59, as the ball drops in Times Square, New York. (UTC-5) Since a decision may succeed with only plurality support, there must be a cut-off time, and the matter is fairly urgent. Because this is a complex choice, please use levels of voting to indicate which options you prefer, if you vote in favor of more than one option. e.g. {{support|weak}} {{support}} , {{support|strong}} , {{support|strongest}} .

Please note for the purposes of this RfC and due to the result being a plurality, the result of this RfC will be determined by a mathematical count. Supports for a proposal will be counted with 1 vote, opposes will be counted with -1 votes, and abstains with 0 votes. The proposal with the highest mathematical count will win.

(Example: 12 supports, 4 opposes, 1 abstain, 8 points total) NOTE: Only votes from logged-in user accounts created prior to the existence of this RfC will be considered towards final outcome, per Requests for Comment Policy Proposals may be clarified or withdrawn by the respective corporation in each proposal. - The current operators of the website, Miraheze Limited, incorporated in the United Kingdom, shall continue to operate this website. Currently, the Board of Directors for Miraheze Limited consists of two members, Void and Owen.

Miraheze Limited intended to dissolve itself but continues to be operational until a decision is reached by the community and operations of Miraheze are transferred over, or in case the community does not select any one group to operate Miraheze. They do not have nonprofit or charity status and are instead a "company limited by guarantee" (so the company has no shareholders). Support A (status quo) [edit | edit source]- Weak support Per abstain comments below.

小美粉粉 (T - C - S) 1004065811 bytes of data NOTE: Do not {{ping}} me! 15:35, 22 December 2023 (UTC) [reply] - Weak support Has Worked so far but with quite a few issues, my fear is overtime we will have to permanently close many wikis.-- PaulGamerBoy360 (talk • contribs • logs) 20:59, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Abstain A (status quo) [edit | edit source]- Abstain I don't know enough about the structure of it all to have a strong opinion one way or the other.

Just as long as Miraheze doesn't turn into FANDOM, and doesn't operate by holding an ESG score gun to everyone wiki admin's head, then I will stick around. IvanRider (talk) 15:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain from the breif amount of research I've done, I do not feel like I adequately understand what the future of Miraheze would be like under this outcome. Some people are seemingly saying it's not sustainable, and that may be correct, but I just do not understand what it would look like.

Epicfacethe3rd (talk) 20:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Oppose A (status quo) [edit | edit source]- Strongest oppose You know that GIF where the dog is sitting, drinking his drink, and saying everything is fine as the building is burning down? Yeah, that's the only way I could describe it. Em (talk) 06:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose I cannot see the current way Miraheze is being operated as sustainable in the long run. Two board members and a dire need for volunteers does not seem likely to succeed.

This option would just prolong the inevitable, eventual shutdown. CookieBit 06:41, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose As above - this is just delayed shutdown, which has happened already. Alphappy (talk) 06:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose per above Átkýv L. (talk) 07:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above --미르체아 지우르지우 (talk) 08:43, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose per above. -- Kojo Bailey (talk) 9:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC) - Oppose per above.

Revival (talk) 12:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Owen indicated in June a desire to walk away from Miraheze, which leaves Void as the only Board member who publicly intends to remain on the Board. The duties of the Board cannot be carried out by a single person. --Robkelk (talk) 13:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose i can really only see this working as a complete last resort if none of the other options work, but even then ...

Lunarchaluna (talk) 13:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose The current situation is not sustainable. I believe this will effectively lead to more uncertainty and an eventual collapse anyway. ~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c - (on) 13:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose per above. The methophorical meme dog needs to get a new house. pixlDeV (Talk | CentralAuth) 13:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak oppose I certainly don't like the direction this is going. My hope for this wiki-farm is that it stabilizes itself.

For 6 months, it's been heading towards a downward spiral, causing panic in the process. I really hope it survives for another 10 years or so. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 13:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose per Robkelk, having quite literally one leg to stand on with mira will not end well. --Blad (t • c • g) 13:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose per above.

Soukupmi (talk) (✔) 14:23, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose Agreed that the current situation is not sustainable and this will likely just end in a shutdown KeiTheSlayer2021 (talk) - {o}} I don't believe this option is sustainable under the current circumstances. – Jph2 (talk) 14:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose User talk:Anpang 14:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose It is evident that the current status quo is unsustainable, unworkable, and unfeasible.

—k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 14:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Not even the guys that run this want to continue, so it doesn't seem feasible.

But furthermore, Limited Liability Companies must normally be for-profit and this wasn't organized as a low-profit one which seems also very demanding: A limited liability company or a Low-Profit LLC can exist as a nonprofit limited liability company if the LLC is completely owned by a single tax-exempt organization and the LLC meets a dozen requirements as set forth in an IRS mandate called: “Limited Liability Companies as Exempt Organization Update.” See also Can an LLC be a nonprofit?

So, this mode of organization isn't suited to a community-run, volunteer endeavor. Though, at the very least, this isn't a "premium corporate absorption-takeover attempt, part 2" by any other name, like C is. --NimoStar (talk) 15:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose even the board members don't want to continue. Also per everyone that said this option is the dog, sitting in his house, drinking his coffee, thinking everything is fine, but the house is burning down. This is not fine.

Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 16:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose --GeneralNuisance (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose The current staff tried to walk away once before, and it seems like the only reason they've even expressed an interest in coming back is because the American Miraheze was turning out to be a viable alternative. Sorry, that doesn't engender any level of trust that they'll really be in it for the long haul.

Looney Toons (talk) 17:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Hi, just to clarify a few things here. I have not expressed an interest in coming back, and the MHF alternative is not viable at the moment. In 6 months, no plans have been out forward in how to revive and continue Miraheze. Owen (talk) 19:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose If you've lost interest, there is no heart. Which means only an invadable downfall ...

postponed for a short while Kind regards, Rodejong 💬 ✉️ 👀 → 20:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose In my history with Miraheze, having seen various consultations of the "community", I've found that its staff, whether they be stewards, system administrators, board members, or people claiming to supposedly represent the "Miraheze community", have frankly really been disrespectful towards the many communities and individuals that have used this wikifarm host, including newcomers and the experienced.

Whether it be current staff or former staff, they have generally been culpable in Miraheze's obstructive practices, and putting either in charge is a doubtful solution. - What would be better for us all, who have dealt with using Miraheze's services, is to find and move on to greener pastures. Even if you believe that you haven't been negatively affected, it would be disappointing to see the history of Miraheze staff's obstructive and bureaucratic behaviour continue to even more.

I acknowledge that considering the powers that be, my stance may fall on deaf ears, but I would like to believe that we can attempt the chance to put an end to this wikifarm host, and realize better ways of managing our desired websites, instead of leaving ourselves beholden to a community of disrespect. K599 (talk) 20:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose this is in no way a sustainable option.

per what other people have said --Stardustshimmers (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose This is a bad option that will only end in disaster 15:08, 22 December 2023 - Oppose I haven't been here long but I do know that limping on like this is not a good idea. Seems like this is the same as doing nothing. I disapprove. ThetaSigmaEarChef 22:11, 22 December 2023 - Strongest oppose Not sustainable.

Trevor807 (talk) 23:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Under current circumstances, I see this as not a sustainable option in the long haul. This is, to put it shortly, a representation of someone saying that "everything is fine" when they're in a collapsing mental state. - ThatDudeRightHere (talk), 02:09 23 December 2023 (UTC) - Strongest oppose Per everyone else.

Snow (talk | contribs | sandbox | centralauth) 02:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above.--SD hehua (talk) 04:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Doesn't seem sustainable. ImpliedMemory (talk) 14:10, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak oppose The status quo has many problems, meaning that maintaining the status quo will not solve them. Unless neither Option C nor Option B is feasible, there seems to be no reason to choose Option A.

menndouyukkuri (talk) 14:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak oppose The current issues around Miraheze just aren't feasible enough to keep things afloat. Limiting resources even more - especially for Phabricator / Steward board related things - just won't solve these issues, just temporarily stop them. --MaxiBash (talk) 16:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose This will become a disaster if it continues operating like this, we need to change something. - Weakest oppose better than shutting down.

//Talya - Let's talk// 19:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weakest oppose I'm against it. The reason is that I'm worried about whether I can deal with it properly during cyber down. --爆弾太郎 (talk) 21:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak oppose I feel like we can all tell Miraheze is kinda hanging on by a thread, with how it's currently operating.

Personally I'm able to tolerate it, but many others cannot, and it's not fair to the userbase or the staff to keep pushing something that clearly only kind of works. Rainbowlack (talk) 21:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose My thanks to those who have been driving this automobile with two wheels on the cliffside and two wheels off, but I'd rather steer away from the cliffside altogether.

ReducedAircraftFactory 21:52, 23 Dec 2023 (UTC) - Strong oppose Something needs to change, because from what I know about Miraheze so far, the current direction is not sustainable in any way, shape, or form. We needed change YESTERDAY. Maintaining the status quo should only be a fallback if options B and C fail. (User:ANGH3LL1C) 22:36, 23rd December 2023 (UTC) - Strongest oppose for very obvious reasons. Redmin Contributions CentralAuth (talk) 16:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose I only support if this is the only way to prevent shutdown.

Sheep42 (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose per above, especially when there are better choices for moving forward as outlined below. Tali64³ (talk | contributions) 13:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose No, I would rather then shut it down for good then to continue the status quo. G Utopia (talk) 15:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Echoing what others have said, I don't think this option would be sustainable.

SummerShores (talk) 23:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose My sentiments are the same as those above. Sticking your head in the sand is not a good solution. --LittleMissGhostess (talk) 1:20, 26 December 2023 (UTC) - Oppose That will delay the shutdown. --Mike9012 (talk) 20:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose --Ameisenigel (talk) 21:03, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose nope.

Ukrainia Arro (talk) 23:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose I don't see how this is sustainable --Harp07 (talk) 01:56, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwimh (talk • contribs) - Oppose I think plan A is very bad for miraheze and users who use miraheze.so,I can't support this plan.--Ama-ryu (talk) 13:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose--PB2008 (talk) 01:06, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose nonviable option Casliber (talk) 10:28, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose--IAX86 (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose This option is untenable, with no active current members of the SRE team, only one elected Steward (Void), and, perhaps most crucially, there have been no updates to Finance/List since the summer, so Miraheze Limited is not keeping up its commitment to the community in terms of transparency of all incoming revenues and outgoing expenses.

Dmehus (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Comments A (status quo) [edit | edit source]- I put a larger note on the talk page, but it's worth reiterating here: if the status quo of not dissolving the organisation is on the table, why can't the vote be extended past the original dissolution deadline? This feels like the only way to reasonably ensure a fair vote, since I'm sure a lot of people aren't going to be able to fully analyze the situation before they need to make a decision.

LtDk (talk) 06:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - For the same reason that we don't let elections to Parliament or Congress run forever. Miraheze needs a decision before the process -- whichever process will be followed -- can proceed, and the one thing that everybody who has posted to the various threads agrees on is that the process has gone on for too long as it is.

This has been l dragging on for approximately a half-year; anybody who wants to make an informed decision has had plenty of time to become informed. --Robkelk (talk) 12:47, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Comment: I recognize that the tide is not in favor of this option but I wish to say that in the unlikely event that Proposal 1 C is not successful this would be my second option.

It is my understanding that this option is intended to serve as a failsafe and that the two directors do not have any particular plans for this as their expectation is that one of the other options will be successful. If this analysis is incorrect I apologize and advance and will strike out this portion. In any case I would like to take this opportunity to thank Owen and Void for their dedication and work during all the years of Miraheze Limited.

I know that both of them have strongly defended the core values of Miraheze - including the community and for that I am very grateful. If this option is not successful and they do not wish to join any new Board I you both luck in any future endeavors! --DeeM28 (talk) 07:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Why would it be "unlikely" that 1C is rejected?

It seems to be a rehash of the already rejected absorption by your unaccountable cliqué, which intents to run the premium package by a separate private shadow government via a separately solely-owned private company. 1C would be the downfall of everything Miraheze stands for, primarily free wikis, lack of profit motive and community oversight over governance.

This has already gone over badly, so much so that was already nearly the end of Miraheze where your people sabotaged it with mass quittings without prior notice after not being able to absorb it, including UniversalOmega the sole owner of the premium wikifarm himself. It must be opposed and it must be defeated as it already was before. --NimoStar (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Why would it be "unlikely" that 1C is rejected? Erm, look at the votes? How and where has WikiTide been rejected?

Aaron Liu (talk) 15:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]- That RfC did not "nearly [cause] the end of Miraheze". As stated and as everyone who was involved, along with the dozens of bystanders on Discord and IRC saw, it was due to a variety of factors like untenable management, burnout, and what we perceived to be an unfair ban through gaming the system. The mass registrations were not calculated, they were done after we had spoken with management about our concerns and had found an impasse.

Now that many months have passed, we have reached a time in which we believe with our added experience, we will be able to greatly benefit for Miraheze by reuniting as a stronger force rather than being fragmented forever. - If anything , 1C will fortify community democracy by demanding that community Board elections be held during which the community can vote on Board candidates and boot off anyone who might cause damage to the project. Agent Isai Talk to me! 15:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Talk and talk.

It was sabotage through and through and still is. Explain how the first WikiForge proposal was of having the for-profit division as a controlled subsidiary of the community run endeavor, and is now implemented as a fully organizationally separate company, with zero accountability to the "foundation"? Yes, democracy indeed, where one has 100% of the votes via full ownership. Oh, and the thing about the first time doing the "premium offerings because donations weren't enough"?

Whereas now WikiDie is supposed to be "wholly funded by donations" since WikiForge money doesn't even flow back? Real classy move, Wolf of Wall Street. --NimoStar (talk) 15:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - WikiForge was incorporated first so it wouldn't have been possible for WikiTide to become the parent of WikiForge without WikiTide first existing. WikiTide was then started and it has been proposed that WikiForge become a WikiTide subsidiary but we've been more busy with infrastructure and tax paperwork to focus on that.

WikiTide is indeed funded by donations, WikiForge was what sustained it for it's first couple of months. After that, donors started to donate, on top of WikiForge donating (as was the plan either way with Miraheze, its subsidiary would donate to Miraheze so money does flow back, no WikiForge director has ever been paid).

As WikiForge is still a small business and has to cover its own expenses too, it's not able to donate a huge amount but it was able to provide WikiTide with the technical resources it needed in those growing first months and as it grows, will be able to provide Miraheze with more resources. Agent Isai Talk to me! 15:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The premium offering proposal wasn’t implemented yet. The RfC only asked if members support a WikiForge premium partnership in principle.

When a plan with details arrives, the community will vote on it again Aaron Liu (talk) 15:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @NimoStar: I do not believe that your aggressive rhetoric is warranted and as I have already said below it is in my opinion a violation of the Global Conduct Policy. I strongly recommend that you abandon this combative and destructive rhetoric and favor a respectful debate. What is to be gained with this inflammatory speech?

DeeM28 (talk) 15:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @NimoStar: I would remind you of the GCP, which all users are expected to adhere to. Please ensure your responses are respectful - this RfC will not become a place for people with bitter feelings to attack each other. Now, to answer your question, originally, WikiForge would've been a subsidiary of Miraheze with premium offerings, allowing Miraheze's substantial infrastructure costs to be mitigated some with revenue sharing, which is still currently the case with WikiTide <-> WikiForge.

WikiTide's infrastructure costs are also substantially less than Miraheze because of how we've experimented with modifying infra, allowing WikiTide to become incredibly less complex and cheaper than Miraheze's infra currently is. That's why donations, combined with WikiForge revenue sharing, will be good to keep operations running, whereas on Miraheze it would've been tough. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 15:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Talk and talk. It was sabotage through and through and still is.

Explain how the first WikiForge proposal was of having the for-profit division as a controlled subsidiary of the community run endeavor, and is now implemented as a fully organizationally separate company, with zero accountability to the "foundation"? Yes, democracy indeed, where one has 100% of the votes via full ownership. Oh, and the thing about the first time doing the "premium offerings because donations weren't enough"? Whereas now WikiDie is supposed to be "wholly funded by donations" since WikiForge money doesn't even flow back?

Real classy move, Wolf of Wall Street. --NimoStar (talk) 15:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Why would it be "unlikely" that 1C is rejected? It seems to be a rehash of the already rejected absorption by your unaccountable cliqué, which intents to run the premium package by a separate private shadow government via a separately solely-owned private company. 1C would be the downfall of everything Miraheze stands for, primarily free wikis, lack of profit motive and community oversight over governance.

This has already gone over badly, so much so that was already nearly the end of Miraheze where your people sabotaged it with mass quittings without prior notice after not being able to absorb it, including UniversalOmega the sole owner of the premium wikifarm himself. It must be opposed and it must be defeated as it already was before. --NimoStar (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Support it seems to have worked so far other than some drama nobody that wants a wiki has even a reason to care.

Xenobiont (talk) 04:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)Account created after RfC creation; ineligible to vote per Requests for Comment Policy[reply] - Miraheze Limited will transfer operations to Miraheze Foundation. The group of people who first supported saving Miraheze formed a new corporation, with a board composed of Labster, Zppix, and Void. They have started a new nonprofit corporation in Illinois, United States, and plan to apply for charity status in the US, but have not yet done so, choosing to wait on the go-ahead to take over operations.

The plan here for Miraheze Foundation is to move back to regular reporting with editors like you and work on fundraising so that we can move away from colocated computer infrastructure that has thus far been difficult to maintain for a distributed team. They will also seek grants and partnerships once they achieve public charity tax status. They plan to streamline the process to get more people involved as volunteers as well.

There are no plans to change content policies for ordinary users and editors since most wikis are in line with our nonprofit purpose. Miraheze Foundation will focus on leadership that can react far more quickly to issues that arise from the community, and improving response times for user requests. We would like to build an interwiki community that goes beyond being a hosting provider and can actually help build out wikis and help new readers discover your pages.

And most of all we want to provide a vision of a new era for community-driven content that bucks the trend of mega-corporations claiming ownership of what you wrote online, but with more personal service than you could ever get from the tech giants. Support B (Miraheze Foundation) [edit | edit source]- Support — See my comment below.

RobLa (talk) (not User:Robla) 06:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support per above --미르체아 지우르지우 (talk) 08:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support per above --15:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC) - Strongest support per above --HeneralSombrero (talk) 14:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support The people who would be on the Board are the people who volunteered to actually put in the work to save Miraheze, with full knowledge of how much work being on the Board involves, and they should be allowed to continue.

Also, a multiplicity of hosting options is good for wikis everywhere. --Robkelk (talk) 13:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support This is better than the status quo, but I only support this if the merger with WikiTide does not happen. --Weesee (talk) 14:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support the second best option imo.

Soukupmi (talk) (✔) 14:25, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I appreciate the dedication of the volunteers who came up with the plan to save Miraheze back in June when it seemed the platform would shut down by September. While I can sympathize with concerns about the time it is taking to transition from Mira UK to Mira US, the platform is still up and functioning and the non-profit has been set up in the US. I'd prefer to continue this course of action.

– Jph2 (talk) 14:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support This is better than the status quo, but isn't ideal. Right now the Miraheze community has splintered, and this would be maintaining the split rather than reconciling the differences. Miraheze was stronger when it was united, simply because there were more resources and more hands on deck.

—k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 14:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support This really seems to be the only way to keep the spirit of Miraheze alive as intended, and I believe there are enough volunteers (if asked for) which are passionate about community wikis and shared knowledge repositories for mankind. Let us boldly strive and stride forwards towards a future of community-run interconnected vibrant communities of knowledge and shared creation.

NimoStar (talk) 15:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - How can it be claimed that the spirit of Miraheze is being kept alive when a member of this board initially refused to hold a confirmation vote and consult the community on the matter that is being debated here? Even if we are to believe the argument that this should have been brought up earlier the board could have pro-actively decided to consult the community on this matter.

DeeM28 (talk) 15:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - There has been plenty of consultation and feedback since last June, as has already been pointed out to you elsewhere. --Robkelk (talk) 20:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Single members of this board do not speak for the entire board, just the same as you do not speak for the entire group of editors. The whole point of a board is to have different experiences and points of view, not to be a homogenous group of people that never disagrees.

I do wish Zppix had asked before responding on the Community Noticeboard, but I do not begrudge him being irked at the combined sense of procrastination and urgency from Miraheze Limited. --Labster (talk) 21:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - There was no procrastination nor urgency from Miraheze Limited. We had waited since June for plans to be laid out by MHF with little movement being communicated until recent months. No urgency has been placed on any decisions to come out of MHF at any time as well.

Owen (talk) 21:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - According to your own posts on the Community Noticeboard, you personally set the December 31 deadline for tax purposes and you personally insisted on community input. You are the only MHF board member who is not also on the MHL board. It's pretty obvious to anyone who actually reads what's written in the thread who created the urgency here. If there are other factors in play, nobody's shared them with us (possibly because of NDAs).

Robkelk (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I set a minimum deadline of January 1st - which extended the process beyond the plan of December 8th proposed. I also heavily encouraged this discussion. No urgency was set out - we've been in this phase for 6 months, another 3-6 months is not a problem with me. I've never said "We need this done by x". Owen (talk) 16:21, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The Wikis are running. Volunteers are doing their best.

More volunteers could be gotten once the organization situation is resolved. There is no actual shortage of people wanting to help. Miraheze can remain a true nonprofit and not merge with a front for a shady company. That is all that matters. And yes, the spirit of Miraheze is alive. For now. --NimoStar (talk) 02:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I set a minimum deadline of January 1st - which extended the process beyond the plan of December 8th proposed. I also heavily encouraged this discussion.

No urgency was set out - we've been in this phase for 6 months, another 3-6 months is not a problem with me. I've never said "We need this done by x". Owen (talk) 16:21, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - According to your own posts on the Community Noticeboard, you personally set the December 31 deadline for tax purposes and you personally insisted on community input. You are the only MHF board member who is not also on the MHL board.

It's pretty obvious to anyone who actually reads what's written in the thread who created the urgency here. If there are other factors in play, nobody's shared them with us (possibly because of NDAs). --Robkelk (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - There was no procrastination nor urgency from Miraheze Limited. We had waited since June for plans to be laid out by MHF with little movement being communicated until recent months. No urgency has been placed on any decisions to come out of MHF at any time as well.

Owen (talk) 21:28, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - How can it be claimed that the spirit of Miraheze is being kept alive when a member of this board initially refused to hold a confirmation vote and consult the community on the matter that is being debated here? Even if we are to believe the argument that this should have been brought up earlier the board could have pro-actively decided to consult the community on this matter. --DeeM28 (talk) 15:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Per above.

There are still some old users here. --小美粉粉 (T - C - S) 1004065811 bytes of data NOTE: Do not {{ping}} me! 15:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC) [reply] - Weak support per abstain MacFan4000. Shouganai (talk) 16:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support With this option, Miraheze will still feel community run, and good (pls do not vote for WikiTide) EmicraftNoob (talk) 17:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Why not?

Aaron Liu (talk) 19:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - big change, people hates change EmicraftNoob (talk) 04:04, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Why not? Aaron Liu (talk) 19:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support Out of these options, this seems the closest to continuing with the revival that was promised when Miraheze was allegedly "saved". The reason I continued using Miraheze instead of moving to another host was that I decided to put trust into the new team of volunteers.

Ninjan (talk) 17:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support If option C fails, I will support it. খাত্তাব হাসান (talk) 17:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support if option 3 does not win. I would still only Weak support. Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 18:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support Honestly, if option 3 doesn't win, this will be my second choice, as it keeps the Miraheze name alive.

ThatDudeRightHere (talk) 02:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Well, this was the plan back when Miraheze announced that they're not shutting down. Hopefully, this will work this time around. Snow (talk | contribs | sandbox | centralauth) 02:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support Ok but not the best--SD hehua (talk) 04:36, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support this is a genuinely good option. option C is better, but this is a good option.

//Talya - Let's talk// 12:21, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support This draft is the best of all.Seems merging wikitide with miraheze is very difficult. by Buehl106·Talk·e-mail 12:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Per above comments. Jakeukalane. 17:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC) - Weak support Seems like it would be quite a big fuss, but it could potentially help with server speeds? Better than nothing.

Rainbowlack (talk) 21:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support This would be helpful, but only as a second option, since it would most likely maintain the split that exists within the Miraheze community which isn't ideal for wiki editors or the people running Miraheze. (User:ANGH3LL1C) 9:32, 23rd December 2023 (UTC) - Strongest support Keep Miraheze away from wikifarms and profit motives! (User:Underground(1995)) 10:22, 24th December 2023 (UTC) - Support This is probably the best solution - since I don't know if WikiTide's server provider is blocked by GFW.

If the Miraheze Foundation succeeds in obtaining 501(c)(3) public charity tax-exempt status in the United States, I will support this initiative. @Diamochang - talk | email me - 09:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]- I retract the words that were crossed out because in my testing WikiTide is not currently blocked by GFW. Also, according to the current situation of the vote, it is now sooner or later that Miraheze will move to the United States. Does this mean that the copyright policy on the files will be relaxed?

@Diamochang - talk | email me - 07:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The copyright policy will depend on the copyright laws of the host country. Robkelk (talk) 15:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I retract the words that were crossed out because in my testing WikiTide is not currently blocked by GFW. Also, according to the current situation of the vote, it is now sooner or later that Miraheze will move to the United States. Does this mean that the copyright policy on the files will be relaxed?

@Diamochang - talk | email me - 07:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support seems like the best option Poopykibble999 (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support Joining with WikiTide would be better, but this option is better than the status quo. Sheep42 (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support We should give the new organization a chance to fix the issues that plague Miraheze currently; if the new organization fails, merging with WikiTide wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Tali64³ (talk | contributions) 13:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support I don't see a problem with that. Its just that we don't really know these guys. But its better than nothing. G Utopia (talk) 15:59, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support These guys actually tried to save Miraheze last June and are a big reason why it's still online.

They deserve some credit and a fair chance to prove themselves, but it would be nice if they could lay out a proper 'business' plan on how they are going to tackle the obvious issues in terms of HR.--Moskys (talk) 19:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support Status quo seems unsustainable in the long term. Merging Miraheze and WikiTide simply doesn't sound right for me, and I don't even consider the option of shutting Miraheze down.

So this is the best option so far IMO, though I would much prefer Miraheze to stay UK-based. Danniel (talk) 19:14, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Honestly this is the best solution, the problem is the UK copyright laws v.s. the US copyright laws.

PaulGamerBoy360 (talk • contribs • logs) 21:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support I understand people's concerns about how this option would pan out (hence why this doesn't get my strongest support), but I feel like it's the best option when it comes to preserving the site's principles.

SummerShores (talk) 23:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support --Ameisenigel (talk) 21:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support yeah Ukrainia Arro (talk) 23:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support In my eyes, this seems like the best way to continue forwards Chrisblamm0 (talk) 11:11, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support I like this proposal best tbh.

永定河 (talk) 15:32, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support It seemed like passing operations on to MHF was the plan for the last six months, so this is the logical choice for me. My thinking is the opposite of those who are saying, "Merge with WT; if that doesn't work, then go with MHF:" I think MHF should have precedence when it comes to "trying things out." I'm ambivalent about a continued split in editors and staff, but that's a secondary concern and ultimately the choice of those editors/staff.

Rose Madder (talk) 18:13, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I and my board would be happy to continue to work on a new nonprofit to lead Miraheze into the future, if y'all feel that a separate path is best. I've started a wiki non-profit before, so I know where to go, and as former CFO of Miraheze I would be proud to step into leadership once again.

Labster (talk) 10:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support I have listened to the many discussions over the last week or so and I believe that Option C is in the better interests of the community and something that has a higher chance of success. Putting that aside, Miraheze Foundation have my full support and I have every faith in them as an alternative to C.

~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c - (on) 10:40, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support I had intended to also vote in support of this proposal, for much the same reasons that I voted for C; fortunately, I noticed in time that I hadn't, and am correcting this oversight now. --Looney Toons (talk) 14:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support--IAX86 (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Abstain B (Miraheze Foundation) [edit | edit source]- Neutral if the merger fails I’d be fine with this option.

MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 05:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral It's not status quo per se. Also not shutting down. I just have my doubts. Don't get me wrong. I do respect the individuals who are seeking to keep Miraheze alive. That's admirable. Em (talk) 06:23, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral per MacFan4000 Átkýv L. (talk) 07:25, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral I question the safety of leaving the UK to move to the US, but if safety can truly be guaranteed, then why not?

Although per MacFan4000, that's if 1C fails or appears to be too risky, since that seems like a much stronger start for Miraheze in the US. -- Kojo Bailey (talk) 09:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral per MacFan4000 as well pixlDeV (Talk | CentralAuth) 13:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral Hasn't Miraheze always been UK-based when it first opened its operations? This should get interesting. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 13:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - No, Miraheze was originally located in the US.

It moved to the UK when it was incorporated. --Robkelk (talk) 20:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral per MacFan4000 -- KeiTheSlayer2021 (talk) - Neutral It's not the best option, but one one can live with. Kind regards, Rodejong 💬 ✉️ 👀 → 20:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral if option C doesn't work out, this seems like the next best (but still bleak) outcome.

Stardustshimmers (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral I agree with the person above me- seems like this is a slower, more risky version of option c, but if that doesn't work out, then I'd vote for this. ThetaSigmaEarChef 22:14, 22 December 2023 - Neutral Best if 1C doesn't work. ImpliedMemory (talk) 14:10, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral The conditions are not bad, but it is an option that raises concerns. It should be a backup in case Option C fails.

menndouyukkuri (talk) 14:21, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain I would support this but recent comments made by Miraheze SRE members make it clear that they are understandably burnt out and need more people. As such, I do not feel it would be right to support this unless we are certain enough volunteers will join after this move. Redmin Contributions CentralAuth (talk) 16:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral I would support if Option C fails.

Mike9012 (talk) 20:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Neutral I'm ok with this option if it reinvigorates Mraheze, but I think Option C is likely the better long-term option. --Harp07 (talk) 02:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Oppose B (Miraheze Foundation) [edit | edit source]- Strong oppose I would oppose this proposal. While I have no problem with the idea of this proposal in general, certain members involved, and certain comments made recently have caused me concern with how Miraheze would be handled.

I am not certain that Miraheze would be in entirely safe hands if this proposal succeeds, which is why I cannot support. This is not an indictment of all individuals involved by any means, but a cause for concern with some. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 05:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - You are/will be a member of WikiForge board, are you not? I would wager the votes from WikiForge should be discounted for Conflict of Interest.

NimoStar (talk) 19:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Nope, BrandonWM is not and will not be on the WikiForge Board. Agent Isai Talk to me! 19:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - You are/will be a member of WikiForge board, are you not? I would wager the votes from WikiForge should be discounted for Conflict of Interest.

NimoStar (talk) 19:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak oppose I have no faith that the new members of the Miraheze Foundation board will be able to make any headway or progress (apart from Void) in fixing what is fundamentally wrong with Miraheze. -- Original Authority (talk) 10:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Doing this literally won't fix any problems. Option C is better. User talk:Anpang 14:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Oppose Per above Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 17:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Changing vote only if option 3 doesn't win.

Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth)[reply]- Oppose --Rob Kam (talk) 18:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose In my history with Miraheze, having seen various consultations of the "community", I've found that its staff, whether they be stewards, system administrators, board members, or people claiming to supposedly represent the "Miraheze community", have frankly really been disrespectful towards the many communities and individuals that have used this wikifarm host, including newcomers and the experienced.

I acknowledge that considering the powers that be, my stance may fall on deaf ears, but I would like to believe that we can attempt the chance to put an end to this wikifarm host, and realize better ways of managing our desired websites, instead of leaving ourselves beholden to a community of disrespect. K599 (talk) 20:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The only way to "put an end" to any internet service is to starve it of traffic -- in this case, that means taking your wiki elsewhere.

Use the "Manage/Download this wiki's dump" link in the left-side menu to get a copy of your wiki that you can import at any wiki host that runs MediaWiki. (If that link doesn't work (or appear) for you, posting to the Community Noticeboard should get you assistance in leaving Miraheze.) --Robkelk (talk) 20:08, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose This new foundation IMO would be unproven, and that alone makes it a poor option.

On top of this, however, I would like to note our own wiki's experience with using Miraheze. We found it far easier to work with an existing wiki that covered a topic similar to our own, than it was to work with Miraheze staff. They were more accessible, and more capable in terms of teaching us how to set up our own wiki.

I'm sure it's possible that this would change under the new foundation, but I'm just not confident in that--Epicfacethe3rd (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - How is WikiTide/WikiForge more "proven" than current admins and so forth? They have been managing this huge wikifarm with a dismal amount of manpower and everything is holding together. Vs. a company that only started to operate two months ago and doesn't even have a public board listing.

NimoStar (talk) 02:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose The 501(c)3 foundation structure for a proposed U.S.-based Miraheze Foundation is interesting and, indeed, may be more transparency and accountability. That being said, with this plan, there is, crucially, an absence of a technical team. The three proposed board members do have varying levels of DevOps and web programming experience, but those with the highest level of expertise and experience needed also have heavy workload requirements at their day-to-day job that pays the bills, their food, and their shelter.

So, this option's chief weakness is the lack of a highly experienced and active SRE team. Aside from that, one of the board members frequently picked fights with several community members, notably one of its co-founders, and others. Dmehus (talk) 22:16, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Comments B (Miraheze Foundation) [edit | edit source]- It seems there's been a lot of drama that I tuned out of after leaving the board in December 2021.

I think it's generally a good idea to transition Miraheze to being a US-based 501(c)(3) so that donttions in the United States are tax deductible (for those that care about such a thing). Option C (merging with WikiTide) would also achieve the same goal. These two options are preferable to shutting down Miraheze. -- RobLa (talk) (not User:Robla) 06:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Is there any major benefit to this? --Blad (t • c • g) 14:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It keeps the wiki hosting service alive.

Robkelk (talk) 20:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Per above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.40.51.86 (talk • contribs) - What sort of differences would there be between Miraheze US and WikiTide? I'm not familiar with the fundraising issue, but other than that and a difference in governance and people, it doesn't seem like Miraheze US would be doing anything different from WikiTide.

Given that Miraheze has a shortage of people, it doesn't seem helpful for WikiTide and Miraheze US to be poaching from one another unless there's a significant difference that would trickle down to actual wiki users. The WikiForge/WikiTide relationship on the surface seems like the relationship between Mozilla Corporation/Mozilla Foundation.From what I understand, WikiForge is to be a completely independent business that may or may not voluntarily donate to WikiTide from time to time.

H2232 (talk) 10:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]- If this option is chosen by the community, Miraheze and WikiTide would remain separate companies. There would be no restrictions on anybody volunteering to work with both companies, assuming they have the time to do that. --Robkelk (talk) 14:15, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - What fundamental differences would there be between Miraheze Foundation and the current Miraheze Limited? I understand the former is a non-profit and the latter is not, and the country differences.

What I want to know is what specific changes would happen to the way things are run and how we could ensure those changes would support Miraheze long-term. Voxel (talk) 18:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It is impossible to give an honest answer to this question until after we know how Miraheze will operate on a day-to-day basis, and there is no point to working that out until after we know the procedures are needed.

I doubt anybody wants Labster, Zippx, and Void to lie to us before (or after) we reach that point. --Robkelk (talk) 14:18, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Weak support Seems an unnecessary problem to move to to the US compared to the less problematic uk laws on copyright strikes but still better than breaking it on no reason and giving it to some greedy capitalist bloodsuckers.

Xenobiont (talk) 05:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)Account created after RfC creation; ineligible to vote per Requests for Comment Policy[reply] - Miraheze Limited will transfer operations to WikiTide Foundation. WikiTide is a new wiki farm started in June by a group of former Miraheze volunteers and is funded entirely by donations just like Miraheze. WikiTide implemented the premium offerings RfC but changed it a bit so that WikiForge is instead its own independent company without control of WikiTide but they share many board members in common for now, though not all.

The current Board of Directors includes Agent Isai (former Miraheze Steward, Meta sysop, MediaWiki Engineer, and Community Engagement Specialist), Harej (former Wikimedia DC board member and Wikimedia Medicine treasurer), NotAracham (former Global Sysop), Reception123 (former Steward, Meta sysop/bureaucrat, Engineering Manager for MWE in SRE, and Site Reliability Engineer), and Universal Omega (former Global Sysop, Site Reliability Engineer, and Technical Director on the Miraheze Board of Directors). WikiTide has achieved 501(c)(3) public charity tax-exempt status in the United States thus donations to WikiTide are tax deductible.

WikiTide has attracted a lot of volunteer support, while the community has largely remained on Miraheze. Policies are largely the same as on Miraheze, except for the Content Policy, which limited permitted wikis while the process of charity status was in review so that they could assess what sorts of wikis are allowed per tax guidelines. If a merger is approved, Miraheze's policies (including Content Policy) will prevail. The plan here would be to reverse the fork.

WikiTide's volunteers will merge back into Miraheze and will serve in community positions, support positions, system administration and development positions, and on the Board. WikiTide's wikis would then be merged back with Miraheze once infrastructure has been rearranged and moved to the US. The legacy Miraheze computer infrastructure will gradually move to the cloud and VPS model in the US that WikiTide uses which has shown high performance gains with lower costs than Miraheze, as we figure out how to dispose of our computer equipment.

The WikiTide Board of Directors will remain and potentially incorporate members of the Miraheze Limited and Miraheze Foundation boards should they accept the invitation. The legal name of the organization will be WikiTide Foundation though they will do business under the name of Miraheze at least for a while. As volunteers would return to Miraheze, a decrease in request times may be observed. The return of many members of the Site Reliability Engineering team would help tackle the over 157+ tasks (medium priority and up) open.

In addition, there may be greater technical collaboration which may yield many benefits for the service. Various developments have resulted at WikiTide which may benefit Miraheze greatly, such as multi-version MediaWiki support (which would enable seamless MediaWiki updates with no downtime, and beta testing available for wikis to opt in to). Informal collaboration has been occurring for a while but a reunification of may benefit all stakeholders involved.

WikiTide's Board will seek to be more community-centric than ever and if a merger is approved, various WikiTide Board members will resign and run for Community Director seats on the Board of Directors instead, accepting whatever fate the community chooses.

With public charity status being inherited from WikiTide, Miraheze would not have to pay the large tax-exempt request form cost and undergo any further paperwork and wait time meaning that Miraheze can immediately begin to reap the benefits of charity status by seeking grants and encouraging donations with the additional enticing factor of tax deductibility. WikiTide also has engaged extensively with server providers and has the guaranteed best rates for servers versus our current collocation. This could be used to help balance the books.

The current price Miraheze pays for servers is draining funds quickly and a fundraiser will be needed soon on account of this. Tying in with the previous factor of tax-deductible donations, this may help to make one of the most successful fundraisers or calendar years for donations in history. In addition, with WikiForge's backing, Miraheze could be better backed in case of financial shortfalls.

WikiForge was formed as a cushion for Miraheze and if a merger goes through, it would serve its original purpose and help ensure financial stability for Miraheze. As assured on the premium offerings RfC, no advertising for the service would happen on Miraheze (and indeed does not happen on WikiTide even now). Support C (WikiTide) [edit | edit source]- Strongest support This is without a doubt the defining RfC of Miraheze's time. WikiTide and Miraheze joining forces would make the farm all the stronger.

It's better to join together than fight against each other, which is what WikiTide and Miraheze would be doing as competitors. Miraheze is on the verge of failing, which is why this RfC exists in the first place. Why wouldn't we want to merge with another wiki farm to grow volunteers, resources, and above all, community? For those reasons, this is a strongest support for me.

BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 04:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I do think that joining forces would be the best option. Currently Miraheze and WikiTide both have a limited number of SRE volunteers, this would for sure help a lot. MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 05:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support This seems to me to be an ideal approach.

Looney Toons (talk) 05:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support I see no downsides to this option, especially since it would help grow the team. -Bixbyte - Strongest support I'm still really new around here, and learning all the ins and outs of wiki-ing, but from a long term perspective this seems like the best option. Pandab3rr (talk • contributions • global • rights) 05:36, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support per above, very great!

1108-Kiju/Talk 05:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Per all, merging seems to be a good idea. --Metalex123 (talk) 05:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Miraheze has lost its way and this is honestly the only choice for a true path forward when we are thinking about what Miraheze stands for and how we can keep that dream alive. It's really unfortunate this entire ordeal even happened that brought us to this moment and from my point of view it ultimately has caused material damage to the service.

My community stood with Miraheze during all the technical issues we've experienced these past few years because they understood that it's a small nonprofit but after announcing a shutdown and then a retraction with a combination of the more recent technical issues it was determined that self-hosting would be the best option. I do have other community projects that could rely on Miraheze and its successor and ultimately want to see what's best for this community.

Em (talk) 06:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support per above, I think this is the best option to ensure the continued ability for both Miraheze and WikiTide to continue into the future. --Astralnekomimi (talk) 06:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support — See my comment above for Option B. Both "B" and "C" would be acceptable.

RobLa (talk) (not User:Robla) 06:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support so as the people says, and I'm glad to be working as an volunteer (hope there will be an "intern" slot for people like me). Like, as some wise people say "Together we can change the world". Pisces (talk) 06:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I agree that this option is the best way to proceed, but I have the same concerns that have been brought up in the comments.

It’s unclear if the current board members of both Miraheze and WikiTide have any outstanding disagreements. I’m hoping everything will be worked out, as the non-profit charity status is a huge achievement, and it sounds like US-based operations will be much cheaper. CookieBit 07:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I can confirm that there are no standing disagreements between us and the current Miraheze Board, everything has long been patched up. We have good communications and relations with them and thank them for their work over these past years.

Agent Isai Talk to me! 07:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Seems to me to be the best option available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taransay (talk • contribs) 07:08, 22 December 2023 - Support After having reviewed all the potential options available I have reached a conclusion that this option is in my opinion the better one.

I believe it was an incredible loss to Miraheze when the four directors who are now in charge of WikiTide left due to disagreements with the direction of the project. I have had the opportunity to observe their work and I believe they are all dedicated, hardworking and active people and what this is what Miraheze will require to the former days of glory.

Furthermore the financial aspect is also a significant factor in my decision and the fact that WikiForge is able to provide funds to WikiTide if that becomes necessary - an idea which has been approved by a previous RfC on Miraheze itself - means there will be more stability. In my view there is little sense to promote a fragmentation in wiki hosting services and this is especially true where the wiki farms appeal to the same audience and offer the same services.

DeeM28 (talk) 07:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support per all of the above. Átkýv L. (talk) 07:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support The only right option IMO --Waki285(talk|contrib|log|CA|Target) 07:36, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support per everybody else. Trevor807 (talk) 07:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support per all of the above.

BlakeIsHereStudios (talk) 09:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Hardly knowing any prior context, it's hard to put my faith in this, but if the team at Miraheze truly trust this option, then I will too. It would definitely provide Miraheze with the strongest start in the US. -- Kojo Bailey (talk) 09:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I think that this is pretty much the only way forward for Miraheze.

I have very little faith that the fractured community can move forward on its own without huge overhaul, and unfortunately, bar Void, I don't have much faith that the proposed board will be able to re-ignite the community spirit without the assistance of the core Miraheze volunteers that have departed from the project. Unfortunate, but that't the way the cookie crumbles.

I would, however, like to ask that a full technical review be done on both Miraheze and WikiTide before any kind of merger, there do seem to be many more technical issues at WikiTide currently (which is in no way a dig, as I know they are rejigging their infrastructure at the moment). --Original Authority (talk) 10:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Being UK based myself it is a slight worry to me for Miraheze to move to a non-UK jurisdiction.

However the continuation of this valuable resource is paramount, and this is definitely the best of the options. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackerlane (talk • contribs) - Strongest support per all of the above Lunarchaluna (talk) 12:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support If we can't keep both Miraheze and WikiTide running, this is the next-best option.

Robkelk (talk) 13:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support --Rob Kam (talk) 13:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support per above, and because I think this will ultimately be best for the users and community, and that the other options are varying levels of bad.

The only reason don't give strongest support(at the current moment) is the concerns raised below regarding past events that I don't feel qualified to properly judge pixlDeV (Talk | CentralAuth) 13:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support As long as this somehow makes Miraheze gain more support in the long run, count me in. I don't mind a simple merging, and having to change its direction towards getting to a jurisdiction.

I've been on this site for nearly 4 years (it'll be 4 years next month in January 2024), and I have high hopes for this. --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 13:43, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support This is probably my favorite option of the 4. I trust these leaders the most with Miraheze. --Blad (t • c • g) 14:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support I do believe that this is the best option.

If you all are struggling, then why try and make another company that has a high chance of failing? Machenni (talk) 14:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support If it works, it works. Metalhead339 (talk • contributions, 14:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support Easily the best option available. A merger gives more resources and strengthens both parties in the process. --Weesee (talk) 14:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support this is my favorite option - keeping my fingers crossed that it works out as intended.

Soukupmi (talk) (✔) 14:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Definitely my favourite option to continue this resource and hopefully keep Miraheze running a lot longer. I agree with Original Authority that a technical review should be done. KeiTheSlayer2021 (talk) - Strongest support It comes with it's risks but if it's the best option we got then so be it, assuming it doesn't open the risk to a complete buyout later..

User:JuleKing2921 (talk • contributions, 14:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support I am new to Miraheze and have no familiarity with the internal politics and specific users named. If this means my wiki is still free with no ads and no ugly skins, and we have a better chance of survival and better support, that's all I want.

User:Tofu.tofu.tofu - Strong support They're 2 wikifarms that are near-identical in terms of policies, community, software, etc., and since one came from another, I don't see why merging is a bad idea. User talk:Anpang 14:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Thanks for proposing what should've been proposed many years ago A174682593 (talk) 14:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I was unhappy to see the fork to begin with, as forks usually damage the project that was forked from, with the forked project having no guarantee of success.

Considering the bigger picture, however, the fork splintered the community, leads to confusion from end-users and readers, needlessly duplicates work, and makes Fandom look like the more stable option (people value stability, which is why Fandom remains a force to contend with despite their draconian governance). Reversing the fork and working towards reconciliation and resolving differences—with the first and foremost ultimate goal of providing a free, open source wiki hosting service—is better for everyone. Remember that we're all here because we have a common goal (and a common enemy—Fandom).

We need to think of the well-being of the project as a whole first and foremost. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 14:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Per all the reasons above. I think this is the best option out of all four. A merger would help strengthen resources, volunteers, and community. Furthermore, I have high hopes that this board under Agent would help guide this farm on a bright future path.

CastleFort1 (talk) 15:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Point of order: There is no guarantee that any of Agent Isai, Harej, Labster, NotAracham, Reception123, Universal Omega, Void, or Zippx would be on the new board... assuming that there will be an election of Board members after the merge. For all we know, you and I could be elected to the Board, kicking out everybody who was on both boards in 2023.

Robkelk (talk) 15:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Not all of the seats would be up for election as booting everyone off would be disaster for the Board as officers who are in charge of legal compliance and have knowledge of those affairs might be booted. Only around half of the seats would be up for election. Agent Isai Talk to me! 16:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - And who has immunity?

Legroom (talk) 17:08, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It very much so will depend on the final Board composition. We have extended Board invitations to Miraheze Limited and Foundation members and surprisingly, most of them would rather not accept a Board assignment and would instead like to focus on other areas of Miraheze but they're in the positions they are out of Miraheze's dire need. At the bare minimum, there should be at least 3 appointed directors. Why?

Because 3 is the bare minimum for a non-profit organization's Board of Directors. Any less and the Board has no quorum and cannot conduct business. Supposing there's 3 people to fill that up, the entire WikiTide Board (excluding Harej) would likely be going up for election.

Harej wouldn't be going up for election, to keep with the spirit of Board#Structure where it states that appointed director seats "traditionally will go to people unconnected to the project and act as external seats" and are for people who "add value to the organisation and direction of the company. Harej, being a Wikimedian with lots of experience on Wikimedia-related org Boards, is a person who brings value with his insight and experience.

Other than that, the rest of the WikiTide Board is composed of typical users and would likely go for Community Director seats. Should we be unable to fill two more appointed director seats, some of us would likely be appointed directors. Those who are appointed would be people who are likely to command the confidence of the community. Agent Isai Talk to me! 18:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I personally will almost certainly be up for election, despite currently serving as WT board secretary.

My personal aim under a successful 1C is that we work to recruit a larger board with a diversity of viewpoints and experience to ensure we don't again end up in situations where there's a scant 2-3 people having to hold all the board-hats and drive the project forward. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 02:31, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It has not yet been decided whether "Not all of the seats would be up for election".

That will be determined as part of the merger, if the merger takes place. At this point, Agent Isai has no more say in the process than Labster does. Robkelk (talk) 16:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - And who has immunity? Legroom (talk) 17:08, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Not all of the seats would be up for election as booting everyone off would be disaster for the Board as officers who are in charge of legal compliance and have knowledge of those affairs might be booted.

Only around half of the seats would be up for election. Agent Isai Talk to me! 16:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Point of order: There is no guarantee that any of Agent Isai, Harej, Labster, NotAracham, Reception123, Universal Omega, Void, or Zippx would be on the new board... assuming that there will be an election of Board members after the merge. For all we know, you and I could be elected to the Board, kicking out everybody who was on both boards in 2023.

Robkelk (talk) 15:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support: Forks are awful. Joining forces together would be better for every single person. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Considering how this will combine forces of both Mira and WikiTide (which both of them are already similar when it comes to how they work, wiki content and community), bringing ease to both parties, I don't see why not. Logohub (talk) 15:41, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support per everyone else.

HibiscusCrown20 (talk) 15:43, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support With everything that has happened over the last couple of years, Miraheze needs stability and this seems to be productive way of providing it. There may be challenges implementing this but it does seem to be the best option so far. Miraheze is only as good as its users and the people who run it. There is some work to be done to bring it back from the brink of extinction.

Borderman (Talk) 16:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Honestly, this sounds like the best option. FellowEsin (talk) 16:47, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support With the clarification in the talk page about what would happen with the Wikis and the MH staff, I am feeling better about this one. I think this option is the one that will keep Miraheze going for as long as possible.

I'd say about February 2nd or so, if all goes well, I will request to become a Steward; to help Miraheze and all the Wikis merging back. I just want Miraheze to survive. It had kept me stable in my very tumbling life. Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 17:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I believe this is the most sustainable option.

Bauerbach (talk) 17:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support This seems like the best option, however I feel I am not informed enough to give it anything more than a "weak support." --GeneralNuisance (talk) 17:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support I support Jwiki (talk) 17:35, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @JwikiPlease add your votes to the button, not the top Aaron Liu (talk) 19:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support - খাত্তাব হাসান (talk) 17:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support This seems the most positive approach to ensure the wiki farm survives.

VexilNB (talk) 17:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support I agree on this. Its definitely one of the best option. ITron Legends 19:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Best option of the four. We need a guarantee of stability. Kind regards, Rodejong 💬 ✉️ 👀 → 19:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support this seems like it'll be the most sustainable option. if relations between wikitide and miraheze board members have improved as stated elsewhere, then i truly hope this bodes well for everyone.

Stardustshimmers (talk) 21:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support--Deadangelos (talk) 21:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Oh yes this please!! Definitely seems like the best option on here, feels like a much safer option than any of the others- honestly, so long as MH can keep going, I'd be happy. This seems like it would be able to keep going a bit better than under the other options.

I have heard that there was a lot of drama at the time of the split, but quite frankly, that shouldn't matter when MH is struggling. This seems the best way forward from what's being presented, and discourse should not matter in such big decisions. I think it would just be petty to make such a big decision off old arguments. However, I wasn't there when it happened, so I don't really know the history. Still, I think this is clearly the best option.

ThetaSigmaEarChef 22:20, 22 December 2023 - Support This is probably for the better. It may not be viable, but going forward it's clear that this could possibly lead to an outcome where MH as a platform continues on; because as it is, this platform may just start crumbling in front of us. -TheAmigo67 (talk) 22:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Honestly, this is the best option. Merging Miraheze and Wikitide will make a more powerful wiki farm, and a stronger community.

ThatDudeRightHere (talk) 02:17, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support I don't see why not. Snow (talk | contribs | sandbox | centralauth) 02:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Somehow my vote got lost in the shuffle it appears. Putting it here again--Epicfacethe3rd (talk) 03:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support the best.--SD hehua (talk) 04:37, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support seems like it will only benefit anyone around. there doesn't seem to be any obvious downside as well.

//Talya - Let's talk// 12:10, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support better than deleting miraheze,miraheze limited.by Buehl106·Talk·e-mail 12:45, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Seems like the best option. There are some aspects of Miraheze that I'd like to see improve, like performance, so if this option really works out, I think joining forces would make improvements much easier. ImpliedMemory (talk) 14:10, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Miraheze and WikiTide are very close to where we want to be. Option C has a lot of merit.

menndouyukkuri (talk) 14:17, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support This is the best option of the 4. It will save Miraheze. --Mike9012 (talk) 16:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support — — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mysterymakes (talk • contribs) - Support Though it'd be nice for Miraheze to remain its own separate thing, I get why this could work better. It seems like a lot, but if this is more sustainable and will help Miraheze remain not-for-profit, then so be it.

Rainbowlack (talk) - Strongest support Thus is the best option of the 4 if we want to keep Miraheze running as is and reconcile the split. It would also be a lot better for sustainablility and retain its not-for-profit status, which is also beneficial in the long run. (User: ANGH3LL1C) 22:31, 23rd December 2023 (UTC) - Weak support on the condition that all the board members of Miraheze Foundation are offered a board seat.

Zppix (Meta | talk to me) 23:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - On Discord, they are saying all the Miraheze Foundation (MHF) board members are being offered a seat. Are you willing to take a seat? What about the other MHF board members? – Jph2 (talk) 00:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I cannot speak for the others, but yes if this option were to pass, I would take a seat if offered.

Zppix (Meta | talk to me) 00:46, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - So, on Discord, Agent says you've been offered a board seat. Is this accurate? – Jph2 (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It is very well possible that I missed it the amount of messages I’ve read the since this RfC has been higher than usual, so it’s possible it was offered and I had just missed it.

Zppix (Meta | talk to me) 01:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - So, on Discord, Agent says you've been offered a board seat. Is this accurate? – Jph2 (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I cannot speak for the others, but yes if this option were to pass, I would take a seat if offered. Zppix (Meta | talk to me) 00:46, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - On Discord, they are saying all the Miraheze Foundation (MHF) board members are being offered a seat.

Are you willing to take a seat? What about the other MHF board members? – Jph2 (talk) 00:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support. Well, if the things will be working as intended, and if Miraheze will still be noncommercial and community-oriented as it is now, then why not? --Kauf0 00:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support. This appears to me to the best option available. Bertie (talk) 01:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support. Let's keep supporting ad-free and free wikihosting available for the long term.

LichMaster98 (talk) 02:17, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Just merge with Wikitide as could be better ★Commander Xiaochan⚡ (Talk to me for fun) 02:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support. An easy choice for me. I am just a small wiki editor, but I do strongly believe in the ideals put forth by both miraheze and wikitide. Nepeta (talk) - Strongest support it seems like basically the 100% ideal outcome.

As far as I'm aware the only reason people were thinking of shutting down Miraheze was over these people leaving so having it back. --Immanuelle (talk) 09:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support This is clearly the best option, for all of the reasons cited above. --Dexi One - Weak support Surrendering to those who left the project over a disagreement sounds ridiculous to me, but if it means the projects and its people live on, I wouldn't mind actually.

HeneralSombrero (talk) 14:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support This is the way forward. Sheep42 (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support As a person living in the United States it would be nice to go by the laws of the US, to me this also feels like the best option for my own wiki. Sirlance3000 (talk) 21:13, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Option B is also about moving organisation to US jurisdiction.

Legroom (talk) 02:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support Given everything that's happened since June, I don't oppose a merger with WikiTide, though I believe that going forward with the new organization will ultimately be better. Tali64³ (talk | contributions) 13:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Altilunium (talk) 14:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest support Kabosu (talk) 03:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I find this to be the best and most reasonable option.

TwoRats (talk) 04:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I am very aprehensive towards mergers in the current climate, but given all the options it does seem that this would be the best solution, so long as the merger allows Miraheze to keep working as intended without any unwanted overhauls to the user experience.

LittleMissGhostess (talk) 1:20, 26 December 2023 (UTC) - Support I usually do not like mergers due to it leading to a decrease in options, however out of the 4 options, this is the best one by far, as the other 3 are just going to let Miraheze go into shutdown, just at a different time compared to eachother, which for a lot of wikis, they aren't able to find other suitable alternatives for if Miraheze doesn't last.

User:GhaztliousMoths (talk) 15:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support as the only option that will allow Miraheze to thrive in the long term. People working on B have put in a lot of effort, and I am thankful to them for doing so. However, I do not think that will solve the issue of volunteer burn out as nicely as this, if it solves that at all.

As such, I have decided to support this with the assurance that people will try to deal with disagreements with cool heads so we are not in this situation again. Redmin Contributions CentralAuth (talk) 19:55, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support this will work Ukrainia Arro (talk) 23:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I think this is likely the best long-term option. Best of luck with the transition.

Harp07 (talk) - Strong support At this point, I think this is likely to be the best option for Miraheze, though perhaps not the best option for the internet as a whole. This is a strong team that has experience working together, and assuming it passes, I will be working alongside them to make Miraheze a more responsive, more inclusive place. While it would be great to have two wiki farms in the nonprofit space, I think having one is more likely to thrive.

We have a lot to do; more hands spreads the burden. And forgiveness is necessary to move forward, so I will let go to advance. --Labster (talk) 10:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support I have listened to the thoughts of many users over the past week and held discussions with a number of WikiTide staff. They have cleared up any concerns I have raised and I believe bringing the volunteers back together will have a greater chance of success.

The technical stack they have developed at WikiTide is something that I've longed to see at Miraheze since long before the split of Miraheze & WikiTide and I look forward to working with their technical teams on both the merger and strengthening that technical stack. This for me is the most viable option and the one most likely to be the best outcome for the community in the long term.

~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c - (on) 10:43, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwimh (talk • contribs) - Support I think more user who had experience with global sysop back to miraheze is very good for miraheze and a lot of users,so plan C is best for us.--Ama-ryu (talk) 13:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support They have built something from the ground up. That is to be commanded and respected. They have the infrastructure to improve reliability and performance.

The plan given to me will significantly expand resources and improve the speed. Paladox (talk) 20:39, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support--PB2008 (talk) 01:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support only viable option really Casliber (talk) 10:35, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support If this improves Miraheze in the long run and allows for better operations while still allowing users to keep running their communities as they are, go for it.

Though given the other options, this is likely the only one for overall stability, least how I see it anyway. Flash Flyer - Sakura (talk) 10:39, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Have had very positive interactions with the WikiTide folks and think this option is best for the long-term future of Miraheze. ByteBard (talk) 19:13, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Please note that, because of why they left Miraheze in the first place, there is no guarantee that all of the WikiTide folks will be returning to Miraheze.

Robkelk (talk) 19:30, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I'd say most, if not all volunteers who left Miraheze for WikiTide, will return. Agent Isai Talk to me! 19:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Perhaps, but they shouldn't be expecting to return to leadership roles that have been filled since they left. That wouldn't be equitable to the people who were promoted into the leadership roles. Robkelk (talk) 19:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - To date, there hasn't been a successful community election apart from Zppix as Meta bureaucrat.

Other than that, all Miraheze Foundation members have been invited to join the Board. Agent Isai Talk to me! 20:06, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - In any case, returning WikiTide volunteers add qualified and experienced volunteers to those available for the community, an issue we presently have on Miraheze. Whether they volunteer and if the community agrees to grant them roles they volunteer for kinda doesn't really matter to the RfC, in my opinion.

– Jph2 (talk) 00:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - Perhaps, but they shouldn't be expecting to return to leadership roles that have been filled since they left. That wouldn't be equitable to the people who were promoted into the leadership roles. Robkelk (talk) 19:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I'd say most, if not all volunteers who left Miraheze for WikiTide, will return. Agent Isai Talk to me!

19:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Please note that, because of why they left Miraheze in the first place, there is no guarantee that all of the WikiTide folks will be returning to Miraheze. Robkelk (talk) 19:30, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support Seems like the path most likely to work out.

LilyBread (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Abstain C (WikiTide) [edit | edit source]- Abstain This seems like the most reasonable option out of the bunch given how the folks at WikiTide seem the most equipped to deal with the change on short notice, and from my understanding, it would basically just be asking those people to come back.

I don't want to add my vote onto the pile since I don't think it'll be needed, and I don't have enough information, but this is at least my reasoning for resonating most strongly with this option based upon limited information.

LtDk (talk) 06:23, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain Aside from guarantees which I voiced in the comment (re abuse, bias, favouring, drama/failed communication), a proper explanation on how you are about to run two opposite things - charity 'new' Miraheze and for-profit WikiForge, w/o putting former at the risk (per Zppix' concerns), is needed. Legroom (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - We had previously discussed this with Zppix but it seems his concerns are not satisfied. I will be replying to his comments. Agent Isai Talk to me!

14:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain Normally I would support that but as I read the negative comments on how WikiTide allegedly damaged us and how bad they allegedly are (I don't know if all that is true) I'm not sure what to believe anymore. G Utopia (talk) 15:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain I'm conflicted on this one.

While it certainly seems like the most practical and constructive option, my reservations about WikiTide prevent me from giving this any support (even a weak one, as I believe that would still count as an added vote when it comes time to count them all). That's why I decided to abstain. --SummerShores (talk) 23:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain I keep bouncing between the options and this is the most reasonable, I think, but I don't feel strongly enough to say I support it.

I have some concerns about what will happen to wikis on either farm, but I hear the two farms will still be separate sites in this scenario? Confusing but probably ideal. ♡ Verne ♡ 💬 14:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain The 'Option C' team does indeed have the strongest plan for technical team recruitment, although retention and workload division have long been struggles among the SRE team.

What I don't like about this proposal is the fact the proposed merger of WikiTide wikis back into Miraheze, then have Miraheze rebranded as WikiTide. WikiTide was a fresh start, by an experienced team, and, so, it should chart its own path and history. I really liked the vision and boldness of Universal Omega, among others, in putting it worth. I very much wanted to see it chart that new path, with its incorporation, U.S. charitable status, and the like. The board members were also strong, too.

I personally would have preferred the boards of Miraheze Limited (Owen and Void) and WikiTide Foundation (Universal Omega, NotAracham, Reception123, and Agent Isai) to have come together, agreed to a memorandum of understanding regarding the gradual wind down of Miraheze Limited and a transfer of assets (i.e., remaining funds, Miraheze name and logo, domain names, XML and image dumps) to WikiTide.

Wiki database merges are never a good idea, but also, Miraheze had users from within the European Economic Area, and WikiTide Foundation will no longer be obliged to adhere to the European GDPR, unless their board voluntarily agreed to follow it. What if those users did not want to have their user and/or wiki data transferred? By transferring only their XML and image dumps, no private user data is being transferred, and WikiTide would've held onto those dumps should users want to have their wiki imported into WikiTide.

That being said, this is a bit better than a proposal to have merged the Miraheze databases into WikiTide. Dmehus (talk) 22:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I will note that Miraheze will not be rebranded as WikiTide pending community discussion. Otherwise, your concerns are valid but have been rebutted. Tali64³ (talk | contributions) 23:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - My understanding is that, should Option C be the option that passes, Miraheze would be rebranded as WikiTide. This discussion is that community discussion.

A further discussion would be a waste of time, at best, and overriding of community consensus, at worst. Dmehus (talk) 00:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - My understanding, based on discussions with Labster, is that Miraheze would not be rebranded. What is your source? Also, this discussion is regarding the future of Miraheze, and does not include any proposals for a rebranding of any sort. Robkelk (talk) 00:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - Ditto what Robkelk said.

I have consistently seen where the plan for option C is for WikiTide non-profit to take charge but do business as Miraheze. It's been referred to as a reverse fork. Thus the rebranding would be from WT to MH. – Jph2 (talk) 00:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - Nobody's agreed for the WikiTide people to take charge after the merger. In fact, the plan that has been presented is for elections to be held, allowing the community from both Miraheze and wikiTide to decide who will be in charge.

Robkelk (talk) 00:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - I wonder if we're not conflating board members with community roles? There are rules/laws for non-profits and there has been discussion on the makeup of the board sprinkled throughout the Support C threads, which I can't really link to individually. From a practical perspective, option C is WikiTide absorbing Miraheze from a corporate perspective. Thus, WT's board would be in charge. They have asked MH board members to join and I have been told at least some will.

So, if the community votes to transition MH to WT, then they've agreed to WT people taking charge. - There's also been discussion about current Miraheze volunteers continuing in their community roles. Again, sprinkled throughout, what I've seen is MH volunteers will continue in their roles, while WikiTide volunteers could apply for election to their roles on a merged platform. - I'm not a lawyer, but in a nutshell, if option C passes, WikiTide will take charge with a WT board plus whichever MH board members agree to carry on.

MH volunteers will retain their roles and WT volunteers can seek community support to take on their roles with the combined community. - – Jph2 (talk) 01:30, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - The actual on-the-ground situation is somewhere between what you both have said.

To clarify: - WT is the successor legal entity and will be taking over operations from MH LTD - WT's board currently has 5 board-appointed and 4 community seats, and will continue to do so after the merger - Appointed directors will consist of a mix of names that have been involved in MH LTD/MHF/WT as well as external folks not affiliated with any of these project to provide an impartial perspective.

A subset of those currently serving on the WT board in appointed seats will be resigning and running for the community board seats, those planning to do so will be the folks who have been largely involved in community-facing operations and activities beyond board duties. - To ensure an expedient transfer, this will be happening after transfer duties are concluded and MH individuals have completed NDA onboarding to avoid disrupting legal and technical operations.

Separately from board elections, WT volunteers will not inherit their community-facing roles and privileges from WT (aside from those they currently hold at MH), and will instead re-apply for community approval. - WT is the successor legal entity and will be taking over operations from MH LTD - Hope this helps clear things up somewhat. - --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 02:02, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - The actual on-the-ground situation is somewhere between what you both have said.

To clarify: - Nobody's agreed for the WikiTide people to take charge after the merger. In fact, the plan that has been presented is for elections to be held, allowing the community from both Miraheze and wikiTide to decide who will be in charge. Robkelk (talk) 00:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - My understanding is that, should Option C be the option that passes, Miraheze would be rebranded as WikiTide. This discussion is that community discussion.

A further discussion would be a waste of time, at best, and overriding of community consensus, at worst. Dmehus (talk) 00:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - I will note that Miraheze will not be rebranded as WikiTide pending community discussion. Otherwise, your concerns are valid but have been rebutted. Tali64³ (talk | contributions) 23:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Oppose C (WikiTide) [edit | edit source]- Oppose - This option feels a lot to me like Miraheze has just given up and want to move their users elsewhere.

I have concerns that with this Miraheze would lose the feeling of being ran as a community and turn into what from experience feels like a bureaucratic process. I cannot bring myself to support moving Miraheze to WikiTide and I don't think I will be able to for a long time in the future. Zippybonzo (talk) 08:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Miraheze won't move their users elsewhere, they'll remain right here and there won't be any change to how wikis work or our democracy model.

If anything, the new Board will encourage more democracy as Board elections will be called and users will run for Board seats, something currently not done. Agent Isai Talk to me! 08:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose per above --미르체아 지우르지우 (talk) 08:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - To be precise, I strongly disagree, including the concerns expressed in the comments below.

미르체아 지우르지우 (talk) 08:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose It seems ironic to me Miraheze being at risk of collapsing 6 months ago resulted from an exodus of volunteers many of whom started up WikiTide and now the proposal is for WikiTide to subsume Miraheze. As a result, I'm not in favor of this option. The impending demise of Miraheze last summer led me to look for alternatives, which were extremely few and far between.

So I'd also prefer the option of both of those wiki farms rather than combining them and eliminating a suitable option from the field. – Jph2 (talk) 14:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose These wikifarms are run by people who have deliberately abandoned and even sabotaged Miraheze and tried to push for the failed shutdown. "If you can't make them join you, destroy them". Theirs was the "shutdown scare" due to unaccountability and mass resignations without notice.

Then they create this phantom "alternative" which really is a private corporation without community oversight, and a fake "foundation" in order to sell their freepremium subscription model wiki offering. They didn't even ask for a minute for new volunteers before trying to destroy Miraheze, and also, they didn't gave anyone time to fill new positions before they started to resign only because they did not get their profit-hungry, greedy, disingenuous ways.

Requests for Comment/Premium offerings this is the seond time they have brought this to the fore and it must be defeated as it was before. --NimoStar (talk) 15:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It's quite unfortunate that you still think there's a conspiracy going on to somehow monetize off Miraheze. The community overwhelmingly approved the premium offerings RfC by a landslide but you still believe we have it out to sabotage Miraheze.

WikiTide Foundation is a real charity, registered in the United States (you can pull up the records yourself), that's completely separate from WikiForge. Now that it's a charity, it's even harder to reap a benefit off of it (it is illegal as it's "private inurement," something we could very well go to jail for or be fined) which should give the community far more assurance than even the current model.

In addition, as I said, there will be Board elections should this pass so the community will have the ability to boot off anyone who might illegally inure from Miraheze. Agent Isai Talk to me! 15:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I do not believe that any volunteers here - whether current or former - are deserving of the disrespect and contempt that is being shown by this comment and the egregious assumption of bad faith.

Accusing volunteers of such unsavory acts is in my opinion a violation of the "Inappropriate behavior" section of the Global Conduct Policy. These volunteers have dedicated their time for years to help run this platform and this comment has chosen to make unfounded accusations and assume more than bad faith. Every user has the right to disagree and voice their opinion but it must be done in a respectful way and must be backed up by unambiguous facts.

DeeM28 (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Did you reply to the wrong comment/over-indent by one? Aaron Liu (talk) 15:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I do not believe that any volunteers here - whether current or former - are deserving of the disrespect and contempt that is being shown by this comment and the egregious assumption of bad faith. Accusing volunteers of such unsavory acts is in my opinion a violation of the "Inappropriate behavior" section of the Global Conduct Policy.

These volunteers have dedicated their time for years to help run this platform and this comment has chosen to make unfounded accusations and assume more than bad faith. Every user has the right to disagree and voice their opinion but it must be done in a respectful way and must be backed up by unambiguous facts. --DeeM28 (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It's quite unfortunate that you still think there's a conspiracy going on to somehow monetize off Miraheze.

The community overwhelmingly approved the premium offerings RfC by a landslide but you still believe we have it out to sabotage Miraheze. WikiTide Foundation is a real charity, registered in the United States (you can pull up the records yourself), that's completely separate from WikiForge.

Now that it's a charity, it's even harder to reap a benefit off of it (it is illegal as it's "private inurement," something we could very well go to jail for or be fined) which should give the community far more assurance than even the current model. In addition, as I said, there will be Board elections should this pass so the community will have the ability to boot off anyone who might illegally inure from Miraheze. Agent Isai Talk to me!

15:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above. --小美粉粉 (T - C - S) 1004065811 bytes of data NOTE: Do not {{ping}} me! 15:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC) [reply]- Could you please clarify what the meaning of "there are still some old users here"? --DeeM28 (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Meaning: Some users may only host their wikis (some are hardly) and are unaware of this proposal. Some users edited there formerly, but now they focussed on Wikipedia or other non-Miraheze communities.

小美粉粉 (T - C - S) 1004065811 bytes of data NOTE: Do not {{ping}} me! 15:43, 22 December 2023 (UTC) [reply]- Miraheze policies would not change. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - To expand on that a bit more - Miraheze policies wouldn't change without an RfC such as this one first, all Miraheze users would keep their permissions. For the everyday user, this wouldn't change things one bit.

It would just create a sense of financial security for Miraheze and include all volunteers together, allowing this platform to grow better. BrandonWM (talk • contributions • global • rights) 15:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Miraheze policies would not change. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Meaning: Some users may only host their wikis (some are hardly) and are unaware of this proposal. Some users edited there formerly, but now they focussed on Wikipedia or other non-Miraheze communities.

Could you please clarify what the meaning of "there are still some old users here"? --DeeM28 (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose For pretty much the same reasons cited by others. If this doesn't seem like a completely unreasonable option if all else fails, when the option was presented to move to another Wiki farm, those of us who are still here made our choice to stick with Miraheze.

This options seems like giving in to the mess, and would lessen my trust in the Wiki farm I'm using. Ninjan (talk) 17:43, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @Ninjan: Miraheze wikis wouldn't be moving to WikiTide, it'd be the other way around. In addition, the members of the Board of Miraheze Foundation would join the WikiTide Board too. Agent Isai Talk to me! 17:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I do understand that, but it doesn't change my impression of the situation.

Ninjan (talk) 17:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @Ninjan: Miraheze wikis wouldn't be moving to WikiTide, it'd be the other way around. In addition, the members of the Board of Miraheze Foundation would join the WikiTide Board too. Agent Isai Talk to me!

17:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose - As others above me have already stated.--Nobody679 (talk) 19:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose In my history with Miraheze, having seen various consultations of the "community", I've found that its staff, whether they be stewards, system administrators, board members, or people claiming to supposedly represent the "Miraheze community", have frankly really been disrespectful towards the many communities and individuals that have used this wikifarm host, including newcomers and the experienced.

Whether it be current staff or former staff, they have generally been culpable in Miraheze's obstructive practices, and putting either in charge is a doubtful solution. What would be better for us all, who have dealt with using Miraheze's services, is to find and move on to greener pastures. Even if you believe that you haven't been negatively affected, it would be disappointing to see the history of Miraheze staff's obstructive and bureaucratic behaviour continue to even more.

I acknowledge that considering the powers that be, my stance may fall on deaf ears, but I would like to believe that we can attempt the chance to put an end to this wikifarm host, and realize better ways of managing our desired websites, instead of leaving ourselves beholden to a community of disrespect.

K599 (talk) 20:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Strongest oppose merging with a organization that has a for profit counterpart carries much too risk, and all it would take is any mistake for the organization to lose its tax exempt status when trying to run both side by side with so many of the similar people behind it. It’s too messy, and I do not want to risk what Miraheze has built up over the years.

Zppix (Meta | talk to me) 04:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]- As I stated in private, I do not believe any inherent risk may result from this. All proper precautions have been taken to ensure no private inurement and we barely even recognize WikiForge's existence on WikiTide in order to prevent any confusion. An example you raised in private was "all it would take is one accidental funds transfer the wrong way around, or finances accidentally being mixed together". This would be quite difficult.

Each company has its own bank account, finances are not commingled. Any transfer of funds from WikiTide to WikiForge would be on purpose and malicious should it occur. I did raise the possibility of simply just having someone not affiliated with WikiForge be treasurer. Harej, one of our Board members who has zero stake in WikiForge, was previously Wikimedia Medicine's treasurer.

Having no stake in WikiForge and being a seasoned Wikimedian with experience in treasurer at a Wikimedia thematic organization, I believe he would be a safe choice to have as treasurer. With a possible of up to 8 or 9 Board members in a new Board, it would be quite difficult for the small minority who have stakes in a company to be able to take unilateral action that puts the organization at risk. particularly if these members are not anywhere near the treasury, something you have raised concerns about.

Agent Isai Talk to me! 14:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I honestly have to agree with this. Zippybonzo (talk) 14:33, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Per above. Jakeukalane. 17:28, 23 December 2023 (UTC) - Strong oppose Doing this will create another situation like fandom.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Example (talk • contribs) - Certainly not. As can be seen from all of our replies, a unified company will help fortify Miraheze against that.

WikiTide is a charity, a designation Miraheze has been striving to gain for years now and this designation makes it hard to pull a Fandom. Agent Isai Talk to me!

21:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Logbucket 12:15 PM CST December 28th Per above, to merge would be to strip the soul of miraheze - Weak oppose --Ameisenigel (talk) 21:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Chrisblamm0 (talk) 11:23, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak oppose--IAX86 (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak oppose Per my Support B comment, I prefer that Miraheze gets passed to MHF before we consider merging with WT.

Since the merger doesn't seem to be a time-sensitive offer, I don't see why it can't remain an option in the future if reorganization becomes a question again. Until then, I oppose an outright merger.

Rose Madder (talk) 20:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Comments C (WikiTide) [edit | edit source]- I'm concerned about the conflict which caused so many staff members including nearly all SRE to leave Miraheze for WikiTide in the first place coming up again, as well as about the health of the wiki farm ecosystem if this means going back to only having one good alternative to FANDOM.

I also recall being told that the fact that Miraheze is based in the UK is what's protecting it from getting forcefully sucked up by FANDOM. I don't know if I can make an informed vote on this matter without these being addressed, though I would like to be able to as someone who owns wikis on both Miraheze and WikiTide.

Disgustedorite (talk) 05:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The June incident was not the result of one issue but rather, it was the result of many issues which compounded and one which 'broke the camel's back'. From our time at WikiTide, we've been able to look more in-depth at how to resolve some of the long-standing issues that ultimately the June incident and have reflected quite a lot.

The current circumstances make it so that we are in a position to now effectuate change that will prevent the issues that led to the June incident. For example, one huge point of contention was Miraheze's financial state. As part of the SRE team, we were quite worried about finances and the fundraiser. Our server bills had recently been doubled which meant that money was bleeding out, very fast. We had just had one of our most successful fundraisers ever but we were still very stressed.

Now with the in-depth insight we have on infrastructure and through our expansive dealings with server providers/locked-in server rates, along with the added financial cushion that WikiForge will be able to provide and new 501(c)(3) tax-exempt charity status, we believe finances can be balanced out which takes off a lot of stress from the fundraiser. - As for the point about Miraheze being a UK company being the only thing that stops it from being bought by Fandom, that is patently false.

Companies, foreign or domestic, can be bought without great challenge, just maybe more paperwork but a company like Fandom likely has an army of lawyers comparable to Oracle's. WikiTide Foundation would indeed be quite hard to buy out. Why? Because 1) The Board of Directors will be larger and decisions will not be able to be taken unilaterally.

We may also add a clause in the Bylaws that requires that any such decisions require a supermajority of 2/3rds or more in order for such a resolution to pass, rather than a simple majority. 2) WikiTide Foundation was founded as a non-profit and has pledged all funds and assets must be used for our purpose of providing wiki hosting service for free. In addition to that, WikiTide is registered as a charity with the Internal Revenue Service.

Fandom would likely run afoul if they actually managed to buy the service as their endeavors are commercial in nature. Miraheze Limited in the UK was founded as a "company limited by guarantee" and is not a charity meaning that it functions much like a normal company. Agent Isai Talk to me! 05:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I'm also a bit concerned about the reasons for moving to WikiTide in the first place, and it's much harder to support a proposal without knowing all the details.

I don't have any trouble believing what you're saying about how it was a decision made after a lot of conflict, that both parties can work well together now, and that things would all end up better for the organisation, but if someone would be able to provide a better summary in the body of the proposal explaining the circumstances of what happened, it would put a lot of people like myself at ease, especially with the currently strict deadline.

LtDk (talk) 06:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It's a bit of a long story. Essentially, there were long-standing issues (like the one I mentioned above) coupled with burnout from the db141 database corruption incident in November 2022, the March 2023 'breach of trust' incident, and the straw that broke the camel's back was the June 2023 Trust and Safety service ban of a former Miraheze Steward, Raidarr, which many volunteers felt was extremely unfair and was the product of gaming the system.

As there were so many issues perceived and the Board was reluctant to make any changes, many volunteers resigned thinking that Miraheze could not be saved. In the meanwhile, WikiTide was founded by these volunteers in June. In this time, we have all gotten more in-depth in company incorporation, management, infrastructure, finances, and more, we have been able to envision how we might be able to help Miraheze.

We extended our offer to merge with Miraheze to help triple the resources and spread the benefits of our tax status and this Request for Comments was made. Agent Isai Talk to me! 07:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Unfortunately, 501(c)(3) status means nothing in Canada -- the Canada Revenue Agency has different rules, and unless WikiTide is a registered national arts service organization or a registered journalism organization, or has received a donation from the Government of Canada, I doubt they qualify.

So, no tax write-off for me for donating directly. --Robkelk (talk) 13:25, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I'm also a bit concerned about the reasons for moving to WikiTide in the first place, and it's much harder to support a proposal without knowing all the details.

LtDk (talk) 06:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Wait, since when was Miraheze and WikiTide the only good alternatives to Fandom? User talk:Anpang 14:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I kept this to myself, but I'll be honest with y'all - I did lost trust for some people who currently back WikiTide. I initially wanted to make an in-depth commentary, but we'll keep it short. Was it really all worth it? Going back and forth at the cost of platform's stability and users' wellness. And I'm not looking for excuses.

Add to this damage to reputation of volunteer run platforms as a whole, with people getting convinced that rigid, commercial/corporate nature of Fandom prevents it from falling into such conflicts and following issues. On a side note, it's getting bitterly funny to see how some people keep bringing up Zppix' past behaviour like it's worse than what I mentioned earlier, while he's amongst few people who were able to and took the initiative and actual action for the community.

Now, I admit there's no arguments against the fact that it's better together than separated with current stewardship and SRE situations, that's why I'm putting this in comments. My main concern is - there gotta be some rock solid guarantees that dramas, higher rights abuse and favouring of some people over others won't occur again. Community comes first. Just casually saying that you guys have no issues between each others, at the moment, doesn't reassure me. Second thing is policies.

Current content policy of Miraheze is fairly balanced, despite some remarks made back in its last RfC days. And I will believe the statement that policies won't change in case of merging. However, I did saw some bias on couple of occasions before, regarding some parts on both Miraheze and WikiTide discussions. That's another concern, the stewards and board members shall keep this matter fair. Legroom (talk) 08:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Legroom, thank you for your comment. I completely understand what you're saying.

These past few months have been a real rollercoaster and not easy for anyone. I feel very sad about how the situation unfolded in June but this has helped usher new understanding and a new chapter for Miraheze which may yield continued stability for decades to come. The new Board members come more seasoned with experience in management, problem solving, and have a cooler head now.

We also want maximum accountability by the community which is why some of us will not be seeking an appointed position in the Board but rather, an elected one which is subject to reconfirmations yearly. We are also seeking to add members to the Board who have wiki experience but are not necessarily affiliated and thus deeply intertwined with Miraheze drama.

To further this, Harej, a seasoned Wikimedian who served on the Boards of Wikimedia DC and Wikimedia Medicine, has joined our Board and will help be a balance by bringing new insights. I'm not sure about what higher rights abuses you're talking about but we hope that with higher Board accountability comes more chances to call this issue out and have it resolved promptly. The previous Board was rather small unfortunately so it sometimes did not have the time or resources needed to have eyes everywhere.

Our new Board will potentially be as big as 8 or 9 people, of which perhaps around half would be elected. If this merger were to go through, I assure you that the drama we saw in the past year would likely never happen again. This time has allowed us to gain better understanding on how to fix the root issues which caused this drama to unfold in the first place and setting up safeguards to prevent it from bubbling up is a top priority.

If you have any concerns you'd like to talk about more in depth, do feel free to drop me a DM on Discord and I'd be happy to answer it. Agent Isai Talk to me! 09:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I'm assuming this is a given, but the folks at WikiTide a) know that we're having this vote, and b) agree to go ahead with the plan as outlined above if it wins the vote?

HanTheGene (talk) 11:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Yes, half of this section of the RFC was written by WikiTide's board (and the other half by me). --Labster (talk) 12:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Nearly all of the WikiTide leadership have left Miraheze in the past over disputes large and small. Can you reassure us of your commitment to Miraheze for the future? Asking for a friend. --Labster (talk) 12:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Most certainly, WikiTide leadership would not leave Miraheze.

We're in it for the long haul. Agent Isai Talk to me! 12:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - WikiTide has a strong position against NSFW content (see https://meta.wikitide.org/wiki/Content_Policy). Miraheze is super great because all NSFW Wiki's could seek shelter from when Fandom culled everything related to sex, so I'm just having flashbacks to when we were thrown into the trash by a anti-porn movement before.. I can see how this merger would be good and healthy for the SFW side of Miraheze..

and you do say that the Content Policy wouldn't be changed.. but the position of WikiTide regarding NSFW content will stay the same and once the merger happens I fear they could pull the rug & force content policy changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noeru (talk • contribs) - As stated above, the Miraheze Content Policy would be the one applied on a unified service, not the WikiTide one. As such, those wikis are likely acceptable.

The stricter Content Policy was only in place while charity status was figured out. Agent Isai Talk to me! 14:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - (I can't seem to indent this correctly - Tab doesn't work - this is a answer to Agent Isai's comment above) Why can't you say for certain whether those Wiki's are acceptable if the content policy will be the exact same? If there will be changes to what content will be allowed or not shouldn't that be part of this proposal?

If anything, can you at least promise and say for certain that in the case of us getting yeeted we'll get time to move to another platform again + that wiki dumps will be provided? --Noeru - I didn't say for certain as no specific wiki was linked. Based on what you said, as long as it's permitted by the current Content Policy, it should be fine. If a wiki is ever closed, per the Terms of Use, a database dump is always provided. Agent Isai Talk to me!

14:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - (I can't seem to indent this correctly - Tab doesn't work - this is a answer to Agent Isai's comment above) Why can't you say for certain whether those Wiki's are acceptable if the content policy will be the exact same? If there will be changes to what content will be allowed or not shouldn't that be part of this proposal?

If anything, can you at least promise and say for certain that in the case of us getting yeeted we'll get time to move to another platform again + that wiki dumps will be provided? --Noeru - As stated above, the Miraheze Content Policy would be the one applied on a unified service, not the WikiTide one. As such, those wikis are likely acceptable. The stricter Content Policy was only in place while charity status was figured out. Agent Isai Talk to me!

14:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Question: What happened in June that caused WikiTide and stuff? Was it the db141 thing? Aaron Liu (talk) 15:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @Aaron Liu: In June, one of the former Stewards, Raidarr, was Globally Locked because of Trust and Safety issues. (What he did I don't know- I wasn't involved with it) After that, most of the Miraheze higher staff, and they all went to WikiTide; a former Miraheze staff made wiki host.

There were extremely few people left jn Miraheze, and the Board of Directors (the highest people- that I know of) didn't and still don't want to continue- except for Void. And I don't know about the db141 error. I'm guessing it means Database error. Hope this helps!

Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 23:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I'm quite sure that a nonprofit openly offering the premium services of a company for-profit of the same owners and within the same service and infrastructure scheme is not only unethical (imagine if you could pay for Amnesty International GOLD), but also HIGHLY illegal due to conflict of interest, corporate law, and related legislation. Thus this is not only a huge ethical quandary, but also an existential problem due to everything being wiped off the map by litigation (including state-initiated).

NimoStar (talk) 15:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - WikiTide doesn't offer WikiForge as a premium service, that'd be private inurement. It's an option that exists, that funnels money back to WikiTide, but WikiForge is seldomly, if ever mentioned on WikiTide, something that would be true on Miraheze too, as was accorded in the premium offerings RfC. In addition, both do not share the same infrastructure as again, that's private inurement. Agent Isai Talk to me! 15:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Citation needed.

I distinctively remember NPR tote bags and Free Software Foundation memberships. Even actual nonprofits can have for-profit subsidiaries, see “Open”AI. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I'm unsure about this one.

On one hand, it would undo the fork and allow for Miraheze to have a level of financial security, meaning I wouldn't have to go back to FANDOM Wiki, but on the other - there does still seem to be a sense of unease between the Miraheze and WikiTide teams, which we can't guarantee won't bubble over again (no sense of judgement to either party).

All I know is that I want Miraheze to remain a stable host for me to build an independent alternative to UTAU Fandom Wiki and a stable alternative to UTAU Wiki 2.0. If MH and WT staff are able to productively work together to build a good environment though, that's all the better. --GeneralNuisance (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - There's no unease between any of the teams. We've had things patched up for a while now and regular, informal collaboration already occurs.

Our teammates would be excited to have us rejoin them, as would we. Agent Isai Talk to me! 17:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - In that case, I'm all for it. It seems like the most sustainable option. --GeneralNuisance (talk) 17:34, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - There's no unease between any of the teams. We've had things patched up for a while now and regular, informal collaboration already occurs. Our teammates would be excited to have us rejoin them, as would we. Agent Isai Talk to me!

17:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Question: Which option (1b or 1c) is more likely to result in the strongest focus on diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging? Please support your answer. Thanks! --Angelyork (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - That's an interesting question. Miraheze/WikiTide's design is inherently open and doesn't seek to discriminate or suppress groups, enshrined in our Content Policy and Global Conduct Policy. I would assume both organizations would work to ensure our open fundamentals continue and that we do not regress.

I know 1C at least certainly would. Agent Isai Talk to me! 14:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Agent Isai, that addresses my concern about equality. I'd still like to know which is the strongest option from the perspective of equity? Here is a fun and simple graphic to illustrate the difference. Thanks! --Angelyork (talk) 22:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - That's an interesting question. Miraheze/WikiTide's design is inherently open and doesn't seek to discriminate or suppress groups, enshrined in our Content Policy and Global Conduct Policy.

I would assume both organizations would work to ensure our open fundamentals continue and that we do not regress. I know 1C at least certainly would. Agent Isai Talk to me! 14:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - From what I understand, one of the issues that lead to the migration of many Miraheze members from Miraheze to WikiTide was the members' disagreement with punishment for an admin for his "extremely borderline" abuse of the CheckUser (user tracking) and Oversight moderation functions.

Given that if this proposal is adopted, Miraheze would move to a jurisdiction with weaker data protection laws, what would WikiTide do to ensure this incident isn't repeated? Many wikis on Miraheze are magnets for abuse, and the loss of confidentiality for their users will cause them harm. H2232 (talk) 00:11, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The Director of Trust and Safety has never explicitly stated what the offense was but I do know it was related to vague CheckUser log entries, never Oversight misuse.

The Steward who was banned did share a piece of the correspondence exchanged with the DT&S where it was found that there were three CheckUser log entries which were a potential concern. This Steward believes it was from early in his Stewardship when he was still 'learning the ropes'. That however, was not the reason he was banned.

He was admonished for that but was banned for a violation of an interaction ban which we thought was rather silly as he never spoke to the user in question, only referenced this user's ongoing global ban RfC which passed almost unanimously. This, along with other problems as detailed in responses prior, was what caused the mass resignations. Either way, however, Miraheze would still comply with GDPR.

To prevent another mistake of this type, we'd certainly make sure that Stewards are aware of what reasons are valid for using CheckUser as current policy a bit vague. Regularly checking in on the CheckUser log is also something which must be done more proactively as well. Agent Isai Talk to me! 14:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Let me clarify further that we all really like to comply with GDPR, and all hate the adtech industry on all sides.

Because we have PII on Europeans, we have to comply with data privacy rules for them, but I believe either US corporation will continue to comply with European data privacy rules on a voluntary basis for all users worldwide. With the exception that we may move data into the U.S., as permitted by the ICO. We really collect very little PII, because we don't want it.

Labster (talk) 10:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The Director of Trust and Safety has never explicitly stated what the offense was but I do know it was related to vague CheckUser log entries, never Oversight misuse. The Steward who was banned did share a piece of the correspondence exchanged with the DT&S where it was found that there were three CheckUser log entries which were a potential concern. This Steward believes it was from early in his Stewardship when he was still 'learning the ropes'.

That however, was not the reason he was banned. He was admonished for that but was banned for a violation of an interaction ban which we thought was rather silly as he never spoke to the user in question, only referenced this user's ongoing global ban RfC which passed almost unanimously. This, along with other problems as detailed in responses prior, was what caused the mass resignations. Either way, however, Miraheze would still comply with GDPR.

To prevent another mistake of this type, we'd certainly make sure that Stewards are aware of what reasons are valid for using CheckUser as current policy a bit vague. Regularly checking in on the CheckUser log is also something which must be done more proactively as well. Agent Isai Talk to me! 14:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - while my opinions definitely lean towards options B and C, my main worry is with C.

i personally wasn't around for the june incident, but have read up to the best of my ability. i should clarify i harbor no hard or personal feelings towards those running wikitide or miraheze. however, i've already witnessed moments of miscommunication in the miraheze discord by staff that really just does not sit well with me, specifically involving a user accusing another user of not doing their job despite admitting messages later they also did not do their job.

when the accused user says they do not appreciate accusations being thrown at them alongside misinformation, the staff user says to "agree to disagree" which is just insane to me. what is the point in throwing out an accusation only to run when recieving pushback from the accused?? to me this raises concern with the merge with option C, not because i dislike wikitide but because if this is how staff at miraheze act, even if it's just one guy, i'm very much worried drama will just continue to repeat.

i hate to say it but i am seeing why they left for wikitide now. SuperKirbylover (talk) 13:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Now is a time of stress for many. Any such behavior is certainly not desired and should be strived to be avoided. Of course, dissent and disagreement is human nature. WikiTide will attempt to promote more unity between all parties and in the Board to prevent scuffles like this.

It is already in the Global Conduct Policy that disputes like these should be handled between the parties in a respectful manner and in private to allow for more in-depth communication and to prevent a spectacle from occuring. We hope to apply this fully as a Board. Agent Isai Talk to me!

14:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Question: How would you even merge in the first place, (don’t tell me something about the government and laws, i mean the user experience.) How would the user experience change, are you merging into one big website, two separate websites, miraheze and wikitide? and, will the miraheze wikis stay in the same place, or will it be moved to another website?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lingo (talk • contribs) - If 1C is approved, the end user experience for MH would not change in the way I believe you are concerned with -- Miraheze + the wikis on it would remain at the same URLs as before, as would WikiTide and WT wikis.

Both sites will continue to exist side by side while we work to bring MH services incrementally (and safely) onto a more resilient hardware setup and while the backend will slowly converge, there won't be changes to front-end or branding in near term. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 00:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - So, they will be in long term. What about URLs? I don't want that .miraheze.org changes at all.

.wikitide.org is so new that doesn't seem to have many wikis, but I bet they don't want either to change to miraheze.org What will be when you want to choose only one of those as support in exponential having two terminations?

Jakeukalane (firm doesn't work, I have to write it manually) 01:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC)01:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC) - To answer this concern, wikis with Miraheze URLs would retain those URLs indefinitely under current plans, any changes that might transition the platform away from a specific branded URL would only take place with community input --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 05:28, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - So, they will be in long term. What about URLs? I don't want that .miraheze.org changes at all.

Jakeukalane (firm doesn't work, I have to write it manually) 01:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC)01:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC) - If 1C is approved, the end user experience for MH would not change in the way I believe you are concerned with -- Miraheze + the wikis on it would remain at the same URLs as before, as would WikiTide and WT wikis.

Both sites will continue to exist side by side while we work to bring MH services incrementally (and safely) onto a more resilient hardware setup and while the backend will slowly converge, there won't be changes to front-end or branding in near term. --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 00:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I am not informed enough to choose between B and C, but I do appreciate Agent Isai's willingness to respond and answer questions here.

ReducedAircraftFactory 22:02, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I am, by no means, saying Agent's answers are not legitimate and valid, but there is an agenda behind this RfC. The obvious difference between B and C is Miraheze Foundation (MHF) taking over from Miraheze Ltd (MHL) vs WikiTide taking over from MHL and running Miraheze as a DBA (doing business as). Both B and C would be US-based entities.

MHF was formed by volunteers who stepped up with a plan to save Miraheze when MHL proposed shutting down the farm by Fall 2023. WikiTide was started by many of the former Miraheze volunteers who left June-ish. Option C is, essentially, to re-combine the split wiki farms back into one farm.

– Jph2 (talk) 23:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Saying that there's an agenda behind this RFC sounds kind of dubious and worrying, but it's also kind of obvious that there would be an agenda else the document would never have been written? Incidentally I wrote this, and I haven't voted yet so I have no idea what my agenda even was, because there are merits to both B and C that are hard to compare. Is it good to reward people who left with leadership when they come back?

Is it moral to complain when people come back — it's good news, right? Would the internet as a whole be better served by having a second libre wiki farm for more choice, or having one libre wiki farm that is much stronger? Is my own duty to Miraheze or is it to the cause of free information? None of these are easy questions and I don't understand how so many people have voted already without considering things more deeply.

Labster (talk) 10:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I am, by no means, saying Agent's answers are not legitimate and valid, but there is an agenda behind this RfC. The obvious difference between B and C is Miraheze Foundation (MHF) taking over from Miraheze Ltd (MHL) vs WikiTide taking over from MHL and running Miraheze as a DBA (doing business as). Both B and C would be US-based entities.

MHF was formed by volunteers who stepped up with a plan to save Miraheze when MHL proposed shutting down the farm by Fall 2023. WikiTide was started by many of the former Miraheze volunteers who left June-ish. Option C is, essentially, to re-combine the split wiki farms back into one farm. – Jph2 (talk) 23:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - What benefit would this bring compared with option B? Is there anything in particular that WikiTide can provide Miraheze more easily than Miraheze Foundation could?

Also: would Miraheze ever merge with WikiTide on the front-end? I know it wouldn't in the near future, but what would the chances of a merge be in the future and what would it look like? And would the content policies become the same at some point, regardless of a front-end merger? Voxel (talk) 18:13, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Strong oppose I came to miraheze as the only prominent non profit option. Now i see that they will merge with an enterprise project.

This is the fandom we are fleeing in the thousands. And it will lead to a new catastrophe one way or the other. -Xenobiont (talk) 04:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC)Account created after RfC initiation; ineligible to vote per Requests for Comment Policy[reply]- To clarify some misconceptions/misinformation being spread elsewhere on this RfC: - This proposal is specifically considering whether Miraheze should merge with WikiTide, a 501(c)(3) registered nonprofit wiki host, not a for-profit enterprise.

Some individuals on the board of WikiTide also serve as board members of WikiForge, an organization intended to operate as a benefit corporation, founded to handle use cases that neither WikiTide nor Miraheze can serve, like providing dedicated server hosting for substantially larger wiki communities that can't reasonably use free hosting solutions. - WikiForge is a legally-distinct entity with separate bank accounts/finances and would continue to be run 100% separately from the combined entity if 1C is approve.

To ensure good governance, our intent is that those involved in WikiForge operations would comprise a minority on the final board to ensure undue influence could not be exercised, and that different individuals would hold power of the purse at both entities. - I fully respect your opposition but wanted to ensure you had all relevant information to inform your decision. - --NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 05:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - {{oppose|strongest}} This will only end poorly and strip the soul from Miraheze.

This is just a far worse version of Option B LogBucket (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - To clarify some misconceptions/misinformation being spread elsewhere on this RfC: Strongest oppose Paranoia is in bloom, the PR transmissions will resume They'll try to push drugs that keep us all dumbed down And hope that we will never see the truth around Another promise, another seed Another packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed And all the green belts wrapped around our minds And endless red tape to keep the truth confined They will not force us They will stop degrading us They will not control us And we will be victorious --Ponytony (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2023 (UTC) Account created after RfC initiation; ineligible to vote per Requests for Comment Policy[reply] - Many people here appear to be confusing WikiTide and WikiForge.

They are, IIRC, two separate companies. There is absolutely zero intention to merge WikiForge into Miraheze. The proposal is to merge WikiTide into Miraheze. --Robkelk (talk) 15:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Miraheze Limited will oversee the controlled shutdown of the Miraheze wiki farm. Originally offered by the Board of Directors back in the summer, this remains the default option if the Board runs out of will to continue the project. Under section 9d of the Terms of Use, Miraheze is obliged to provide data dumps to all projects.

Miraheze Limited will set a cut-off date for which it will offer service and a date for which it will continue to offer backups. Support D (shutdown) [edit | edit source]- Weak support This is my third choice. I'd much rather B or C become successful but in the event they fail and there is no viable solution then we have to eventually accept the inevitable. In the event that B and C fail, it will be our curtain call and time to take our final bow.

~ RhinosF1 - (chat)· acc· c - (on) 13:24, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support As above - preferable to uncontrolled shutdown. Alphappy (talk) 16:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support In my history with Miraheze, having seen various consultations of the "community", I've found that its staff, whether they be stewards, system administrators, board members, or people claiming to supposedly represent the "Miraheze community", have frankly really been disrespectful towards the many communities and individuals that have used this wikifarm host, including newcomers and the experienced.

I acknowledge that considering the powers that be, my stance may fall on deaf ears, but I would like to believe that we can attempt the chance to put an end to this wikifarm host, and realize better ways of managing our desired websites, instead of leaving ourselves beholden to a community of disrespect. K599 (talk) 20:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Could you be more specific about the disrespect?

Aaron Liu (talk) 00:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @K599: Yes, in every community (including wikihosts and Miraheze) there is always some kind of disrespect. There are always vandals, LTAs, and abuseful sockpuppetry. But, of course, humanity is not perfect. We all make mistakes l, and that's fine- it's how we learn! I do bet all the former and current Stewards, Wiki Creators, Board members, etc have made some wrong decisions; but you can't blame them, can you?

They have over 8 thousand wikis they have to manage, take care of, delete, do CheckUsers on, and I could go on and on. I don't want to sound rude myself, but you are kind of being a little rude about the people who volunteered and work their butts off to keep Miraheze Alice for the last 6 months. Yes, not everyone will have a perfect experience on Miraheze, but some of us are still trying to keep it alive.

And if you're wanting to see complete disrespect everywhere, then take a look over at FANDOM. Thank you and of the best regards, Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 18:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Could you be more specific about the disrespect? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support If the option is between being subject to US copyright law, an uncontrolled shutdown, and a controlled shutdown, I would prefer this option.

Hopefully people can take their wiki data and move it to servers based in countries with more lax laws. I can definitely see a future where a AAA corporation buys an indie game company and then DMCAs the wiki or pulls shenanigans, like what happened after Microsoft bought Mojang. --ArmokGoB (talk) 20:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Miraheze is already subject to US copyright law. It being hosted in the UK doesn't really make any difference there.

The reality is that the wiki falls under Fair Use protections as part of the DMCA. Also, where are you getting this idea that Microsoft through Mojang DMCA'd a wiki? as far as I'm aware that was never a thing, they just backed a different wiki as the "offical" wiki--Epicfacethe3rd (talk) 21:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Miraheze is not currently bound by DMCA as it's US legislation.

Owen (talk) 21:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - But it will be under either options B or C when the entity running the platform becomes US-based. – Jph2 (talk) 21:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @Owen: Perhaps not directly, but international copyright treaties exist and it's common practice to follow the DMCA takedown process internationally. It's not like Miraheze is hosted somewhere "offshore" to evade copyright, it's under UK law, so it can't exactly just ignore a US company trying to claim copyright violation on something.

alexiaa 19:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Miraheze is not currently bound by DMCA as it's US legislation. Owen (talk) 21:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Miraheze is already subject to US copyright law. It being hosted in the UK doesn't really make any difference there. The reality is that the wiki falls under Fair Use protections as part of the DMCA. Also, where are you getting this idea that Microsoft through Mojang DMCA'd a wiki?

as far as I'm aware that was never a thing, they just backed a different wiki as the "offical" wiki--Epicfacethe3rd (talk) 21:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong support I agree with that opinion. I have received various benefits from Miraheze. Even now, many people are benefiting greatly from Miraheze. I believe that supporting Miraheze during its shutdown is the only way we can repay the kindness. I think everyone knows that Miraheze is becoming difficult to manage in this world. Miraheze shutdown is very sad.

But,I don't know anything technical, but this much is certain.I don't think there is anything more gratifying than seeing Miraheze shut down. This sentence was translated from Japanese into English on a translation site. If there are any strange parts, please let me know.- あっぷる!(talk) 12:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support The "Premium offerings" RfC's failure makes me a bit nervous as to the chances of option C being implemented in the event of yet another disagreement.

So if that fails, and option B ends up becoming impossible as well for whatever reason, this will be the best option. Redmin Contributions CentralAuth (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Clarification: I DO NOT PREFER THIS OVER B OR C. I only prefer this over A. Redmin Contributions CentralAuth (talk) 09:40, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I am the most comfortable with this option and I see no other way to go.

Nicoh Watonshing (talk) 08:10, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I like the service, but status quo is a headache and the other two options don't work for me, so I will settle on supporting this because I believe it's the best option if one of the four must happen.

Dutt (talk) 08:22, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Weak support --Ameisenigel (talk) 21:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Support I personally would've preferred another option, one that a mix of this controlled shutdown together with an asset acquisition by WikiTide and a strategic memorandum of understanding between the boards of both Miraheze Limited and WikiTide Foundation wherein Miraheze Limited would partner with WikiTide to share certain user requests to have their Miraheze wikis transferred to WikiTide.

This memorandum of understanding would have been critical, to allow Miraheze to share XML and image dumps of private wikis making such requests with WikiTide, as well as establish a framework under which WikiTide would be provided with XML and image dumps of Miraheze wikis as at the time of the shutdown, to facilitate restoration of wikis should users request them at some point in the future.

The asset transfer would've been a transfer of the Miraheze name and logo as well as associated domains, which would then be redirected to WikiTide, but, crucially, no merger of or direct import of wiki SQL databases from Miraheze into WikiTide would have occurred; that's very messy and not advised, particularly when using the CentralAuth extension.

As well, I believe this was a divisive time in Miraheze's history and some users support option A, others support options B and C, but I don't think we should be conducting wholesale user data transfers, without regard to whether a Miraheze Foundation or WikiTide Foundation will agree to adhere to the European GDPR for users within the European Economic Area.

Dmehus (talk) 22:28, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - It isn't a matter of "agreeing" to follow the GDPR -- that's the law of the land in the European Union, and anybody who wants to do business there has to follow it. worrying whether anybody will agree to follow the law only makes sense if you think they're planning on breaking the law on purpose.

As for Miraheze wikis being transferred to WikiTide, both AgentIsai and Labster have quite clearly said on this very page that any transfer would be in the opposite direction -- from WikiTide to Miraheze. Robkelk (talk) 23:59, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Robkelk, you may wish to re-read what I wrote above as I very clearly understand that any merger would be effected in which users or wikis would be merged from WikiTide to Miraheze as far as the databases are concerned.

I said that I prefer that outcome as opposed to a merger of the users and wikis from Miraheze to WikiTide; I just believe that it is better to start fresh for the reasons articulated above and elsewhere. As for the GDPR, that's not quite true, actually.

The EU cannot compel local companies operating solely in one country to comply with the GDPR, unless that country has a very specific bilateral data protection and transfer agreement with the EU, and, even then, it would be functionally enforced through the local companie's regulator or courts, not through foreign courts. The U.S. has recently signed such a bilateral agreement with the EU, so that concern is somewhat moot, but I haven't looked into yet the specific provisions of the bilateral agreement.

Dmehus (talk) 00:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - Then why bring up moving in the other direction, since you already knew that we were not discussing that? That just muddies the waters during the final hours of the vote. Robkelk (talk) 00:22, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - Robkelk, you may wish to re-read what I wrote above as I very clearly understand that any merger would be effected in which users or wikis would be merged from WikiTide to Miraheze as far as the databases are concerned.

Dmehus (talk) 00:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply] - It isn't a matter of "agreeing" to follow the GDPR -- that's the law of the land in the European Union, and anybody who wants to do business there has to follow it. worrying whether anybody will agree to follow the law only makes sense if you think they're planning on breaking the law on purpose.

As for Miraheze wikis being transferred to WikiTide, both AgentIsai and Labster have quite clearly said on this very page that any transfer would be in the opposite direction -- from WikiTide to Miraheze. Robkelk (talk) 23:59, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Abstain D (shutdown) [edit | edit source]- Abstain The status quo isn't feasible because of the lack of Board members who want to remain with Miraheze. If we don't choose to change Miraheze somehow, this is IMHO the default option.

Robkelk (talk) 13:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain I hate to say it, but the idea of closure is looking more attractive day by day. Miraheze has been in complete hell for a while with seemingly no way out. However, with the two other better options (B and C), this would probably not be in the best interest of the community. --Blad (t • c • g) 14:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain If B or C isnt going to make it then this option should it be.

In that case it would be better to end it all clearly, then that it all just dies in chaos like it would in A. G Utopia (talk) 16:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Abstain I don't think anyone really wants to shut down Miraheze, moreso that they are running out of options. No amount of "shutting down would be bad" or "what about all the wikis" is going to magically create the resources needed to sustainably run Miraheze.

If push comes to shove, I would rather have a controlled shutdown with enough time to find alternative venues, rather than an uncontrolled crash and burn. HanTheGene (talk) 10:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Oppose D (shutdown) [edit | edit source]- Strongest oppose please no Jwiki (talk) 17:36, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose I don’t think shutting down is the way to go.

This would create a lot of hassle and worry, MacFan4000 (Talk Contribs) 05:02, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Yeah not a fan of the idea of Miraheze shutting down... --Metalex123 (talk) 05:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Why is it even an option? The amount of braincells lost in stress this summer wasn't enough? Legroom (talk) 05:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose A 10-day notice to vote to shut down the organisation is such a horrendously bad decision that it shouldn't even be considered.

As it seems to have been pointed out, Mira has the funds to keep running, and so it should at least until it can stage a much more reasonable vote. LtDk (talk) 05:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose No Em (talk) 06:34, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose That seems like the worst possible solution. I think every other possibility is preferable to this OceanOle (talk) 07:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above Átkýv L.

(talk) 07:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above --미르체아 지우르지우 (talk) 08:39, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose No... At the very least, Miraheze should be handed to someone else, but it should never shut down if it can be avoided. Miraheze has provided what many other wiki hosting platforms have not, and I would hate to see a wiki world without Miraheze - at least, not until another alternative comes along that can truly carry the torch.

Kojo Bailey (talk) 09:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above. --ThunderGemios10 (talk) 10:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Just... no. I think this isn't a good idea. --Sooshi (talk) 10:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above. --Revival (talk) 12:41, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose if it can be avoided at all, this is a very bad idea to me...

Lunarchaluna (talk) 13:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Mmmmmmm, give up after years and years of fighting tooth and nail to keep Miraheze alive? Gonna say nay. Oppose per above arguments as well pixlDeV (Talk | CentralAuth) 13:26, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Miraheze is a now recognised brand. Don't lose that. --Rob Kam (talk) 13:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose What in blazes would that solve? All of that donation and drive would go out the window if it shuts down like this.

This would've been all for nothing, and we surely don't want that, now do we? --DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 13:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose We surely don't want this. At least I don't. 147.161.165.1 14:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC) Soukupmi (talk) (✔) 14:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per all of the above KeiTheSlayer2021 (talk) - Strongest oppose Why would I want this? User:Tofu.tofu.tofu - Strongest oppose What about all the wikis? Sure, they'll get dumps, but then there will be problems with import stuff.

And, Miraheze has lasted 8 years and has thousands of wikis, and like the second-largest community of any wikifarm, so why just waste it like that? And, does Miraheze even need to shut down? There are enough volunteers, and even more if Miraheze merges with WikiTide. User talk:Anpang 14:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose This is the least desired of all the options. There are enough folks committed to either option B or C that this option doesn't need serious consideration.

– Jph2 (talk) 14:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Failure is not an option. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 14:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose per above --小美粉粉 (T - C - S) 1004065811 bytes of data NOTE: Do not {{ping}} me! 15:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC) [reply] - Strongest oppose We've fought so hard for MH to survive, we can't just kill it now!

Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 16:33, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Voting to support this feels like voting to shoot oneself in the foot. It doesn't really make sense to me. --GeneralNuisance (talk) 17:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Obviously. Why did we even stay? What of the users who trusted Miraheze when they moved from the Big Bad Fandom? Most importantly, what of the users who trusted the new team when we were told Miraheze would not shut down after all?

My opinion is pretty much the comment below: it's the holidays, not spooky season. Ninjan (talk) 17:47, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose I have not put ten years into All The Tropes to watch it vanish. Anything is better than that. Well, except Fandom.com or other commercial hosting.

Looney Toons (talk) 17:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Worst option in my opinion … Kind regards, ✍️ Rodejong ⁝ 💬talk ⁝ ☑️Account Info ⁝ 🔑rights ⁝ 🗄️contribs ⁝ 📑logs ⁝ (✍️guestbook) ⁝ 📆⏱️ … 19:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose I would rather not see Miraheze shutdown, I can be convinced to change my opinions on other options but not this one.--Nobody679 (talk) 19:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose I do not feel this is an acceptable option.

Miraheze simply holds too much information for a total shutdown to be acceptable. At minimum, if all else fails, the data should be migrated to a separate platform--Epicfacethe3rd (talk) 20:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose this is only marginally better than 1A, but neither is a good option. per stuff other people have said as well.

Stardustshimmers (talk) 20:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose This is hardly better than 1A and not much better in spirit than C - Strongest oppose FCK NO PLEASE NO I only just joined MH and everyone's been so nice, and it's been so amazing to start finding a community of people who like this little niche fandom, I would hate to lose it. There's a lot of truly amazing wikis and pieces of information on them that losing would be devestating. Don't hit the self destruct. Please.

I mean, I know my argument is basically 'I would be really sad, and it looks like a lot of other people would be too', but you know, emotivism is a valid argument. We would be sad. Please don't make us sad? Besides, there are so few places on the internet that aren't ad-filled corporate capitalist hellscapes. The internet could have been such a source for good, and it is fast reflecting the society we live in- it is turning rotten. MH truly seems to be a refuge from this.

A beacon of hope, shining out against the dark. So, please, don't give up just yet- don't take away the light. ThetaSigmaEarChef 22:28, 22 December 2023 - Strongest oppose Miraheze is the de-facto sole competitor to Fandom, hosting wikis used by the likes of NATO and the Red Cross. A shutdown would mean there would be no service which would offer free managed wiki hosting in the non-entertainment category (barring WikiTide which is in its infancy), and Fandom would have a monopoly in the entertainment/fandom category.

Many existing wikis are not likely to be capable of migrating due to financial, skill, or other limitations, and there would be a significant loss of information resulting from the closure of these wikis. Of course, a controlled shutdown with data dumps would be preferrable to no data dumps, but I doubt that many wikis would be able to restore the dumps to a usable form. It's pretty clear that the arguments in support of a shutdown are not serious.

H2232 (talk) 22:51, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per others. Trevor807 (talk) 23:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose DEAR GOD NO. This option will cause excess and needless worry, as if the worry this summer wasn't bad enough. - ThatDudeRightHere (talk) 02:12, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose If that shutdown scare back in mid-June 2023 wasn't bad enough, you're just gonna repeat history if Miraheze shuts down for real.

Not to mention, some of our other competitors forbid certain topics to be hosted, and its hard to find other alternatives that either allow some of these blacklisted topics, have an up-to-date MediaWiki interface, no ads, or being free and open source.

Snow (talk | contribs | sandbox | centralauth) 02:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose We try our best to restart it so we should not close it.--SD hehua (talk) 04:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose We've spend lots of time working on our wikis on Miraheze, closing Miraheze would not be a good option for wiki maintainers. Wr (talk) 12:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose The most bad draft.

by Buehl106·Talk·e-mail 12:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Given that options for continuing Miraheze exist, I think it's better to try doing so, rather than giving up and shutting down. There's just nothing really like Miraheze, and while for some wikis self-hosting could be an option, it's not really something everyone can do. ImpliedMemory (talk) 14:10, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Miraheze is the best Wiki farm out there. ANY option, including the status quo, is better.

//Talya - Let's talk// 14:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Worse than the current situation. Not worth considering unless all other options are unworkable. --menndouyukkuri (talk) 14:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Abso-fucking-lutely not. I'd imagine many people moved to Miraheze after the current surrounding issues on FANDOM, myself included. Letting everyone go just seems like a waste, and a nightmare for everyone to start migrating elsewhere all at once.

MaxiBash (talk) 16:11, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose That is a total waste and shutting down is a really bad idea. --Mike9012 (talk) 16:17, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose As a person who knows “no” in almost every single language. Let me give you them. No. No. Non. Nein. Não. Nee. Nee. Ei. Nac ydw. Hayi. いいえ。Ora. Жоқ. Нет. لا. አይ. నం. เลขที่. नेईं. نہیں. ނޫން. There, now rethink. - If I may add (in both a natlang and a conlang)—.לֹא.

תֻ (also, did you forget to sign your message?) Rainbowlack (talk) 21:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Totally oppose Shutting down Miraheze would mean that corporative places like the infamous Fandom would keep poisoning many Wikis with their corporative rules and dictatorship.--JohnMcGurkus (talk) 17:05, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Miraheze is the only wiki farm I've found that suits mine and my friends needs, without us having to shell out cash we don't always have.

It's a great environment for learning and development, and I don't want to schlep everything over to a place that doesn't care for its users and/or is actively trying to profit off of them. Rainbowlack (talk) 21:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose How does this option serve anyone's best interests? ReducedAircraftFactory 21:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose This would just make a bunch of wikis have to move, and is the worst possible option than maintaining the status quo.

(User:ANGH3LL1C) 22:35, 23rd December 2023 (UTC) - Strongest opposeNooo!--爆弾太郎 (talk) 01:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong opposeThe idea does not convince me, it is the worst of all. Think of all the projects people have done to simply force a backup as quickly as possible to save the wikis it would worry several people. --Tornitiu (talk) 06:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose you're in a good financial situation. The only issue is volunteers, and you haven't really been canvassing for volunteers.

In fact you seemed to have ignored my offer to volunteer despite my qualifications seemingly just over cliquiness. If you don't want people outside of your friend group to volunteer that's fine, but don't shut down the site because your friend group has been breaking apart. --Immanuelle (talk) 09:13, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose The Minecraft Wiki's move out of Fandom has proven that Fandom is going from bad to worse.

I don't want to use Wiki farms in mainland China, because most of them have made a lot of modifications to the existing MediaWiki, and some are NOT EVEN OPEN SOURCE. Miraheze is by far the most original Wiki farm I can find that hasn't been completely blocked by GFW, and I don't want it to disappear. @Diamochang - talk | email me - 09:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose A nightmarish thought. Smithwicks (talk) 15:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose We just can't do this.

Poopykibble999 (talk) 16:57, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose The June incident almost destroyed Miraheze, causing mass panic and distrust. A shutdown would likely lead to a mass splintering of wikis, some even going back to wikia. Sheep42 (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - They're not even going to move back to Fandom (that's what you call wikia) because Fandom has started lifting a HUGE rock to slam itself in the foot. Just look at what happened to the Minecraft Wiki.

@Diamochang - talk | email me - 08:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Chaos, that's like I can describe it EmicraftNoob (talk) 03:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose This proposal is basically saying that we've given up, which is not true in the slightest even if things look dire; if the Board doesn't want to be involved with Miraheze anymore, there are many volunteers willing to take over, and it'd be unfair to deny those volunteers the opportunity.

Tali64³ (talk | contributions) 13:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - I agree. Miraheze should always put the interests of its users and volunteers first. @Diamochang - talk | email me - 13:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose Better than uncontrolled shutdown, but worse than Option A / B / C. Pasamuel (talk) 20:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Better Than an imediate uncontrolled shutdown, but this is by far the worst option here.

PaulGamerBoy360 (talk • contribs • logs) - Strongest oppose I absolutely do not want to see the best wikifarm currently available die like this. --SummerShores (talk) 23:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose Miraheze is a valuable wikifarm for fans and creators, and shutting it down when there are other options available would simply be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Regardless of wiki data being given to creators beforehand it would still be a slap in the face to anyone who has used and/or supported it.

This should be an absolute last case scenario if literally nothing else ends up working, nothing more. --LittleMissGhostess (talk) 1:20, 26 December 2023 (UTC) - Strong oppose I don't want to see Miraheze end if it can be reinvigorated. IMO this option makes no sense for the community, but for completeness needs to be tabled. --Harp07 (talk) 02:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strong oppose — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwimh (talk • contribs) - Strongest oppose This plan is baddest plan in four plan.

Ama-ryu (talk) 23:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose--PB2008 (talk) 01:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose if there are viable options above Casliber (talk) 10:35, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose--IAX86 (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Comments D (shutdown) [edit | edit source]- Oppose Why even present this as an option if it just causes needless worry? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.177.7.118 (talk • contribs) - If it wasn't included, I strongly suspect that people would be asking why the list of options was incomplete.

Robkelk (talk) 21:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Options that exist should be presented. Failure to present it means a loss of trust. --menndouyukkuri (talk) 14:36, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The very presence of this option puts butterflies in my stomach, despite the fact that almost everybody is opposing it and supporting C. Not the kind of feeling I want over the holidays.

Bauerbach (talk) 20:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - @Bauerbach: I can definitely second that Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 00:07, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Me too User talk:Anpang 11:04, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - This is the very thing that made me go into a panic 6 months ago. Merging both Miraheze and WikiTide together into one big company would be a better solution to this problem.

DarkMatterMan4500 (talk) (contribs) 12:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - How is that different from the shutdown other than involuntarely importing the Miraheze database to the actually-for-profit scheme? There are over 4000 wiki administrators, only like 50 will be voting here. --NimoStar (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - You underestimate the interest in this RfC when you say "only like 50 will be voting here." As I post this, there have been over 75 people taking part in two days, and there's still a week to go.

Robkelk (talk) 21:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - How is that different from the shutdown other than involuntarely importing the Miraheze database to the actually-for-profit scheme? There are over 4000 wiki administrators, only like 50 will be voting here. --NimoStar (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - We have the opportunity to choose our options, so it is too early to be desperate. --menndouyukkuri (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - "Miraheze is obliged to provide data dumps to all projects". I hope this means publicly available data dumps.

Just providing them to the owners will not do much for the continued public accessibility of many wikis. And mirroring that data to archive.org (the inevitable destination of the data) would be best, rather than leaving it up to a third party. --HiccupJul (talk) 19:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - While that might be the optimum solution for the public wikis, it would be a breach of privacy for the private wikis. Robkelk (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - A data dump is likely an .xml file.

How "Miraheze is obliged to provide data dumps" is not clearly defined. It may be as simple as wikis can generate data dumps, which they can do right now if they choose. I suspect that meets the legal "obligation" referenced. Such a dump is specific to that wiki. If the wiki is public, then it's likely public. If the wiki is private, then it's not public. I don't see there is any "breach of privacy" in this. It's up to wikis if they avail themselves of dumps.

– Jph2 (talk) 02:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]- HiccupJul was talking about mirroring the data dumps to archive.org, which would have made the private wikis public. That's the potential breach of privacy. Robkelk (talk) 03:12, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - A data dump is likely an .xml file. How "Miraheze is obliged to provide data dumps" is not clearly defined. It may be as simple as wikis can generate data dumps, which they can do right now if they choose. I suspect that meets the legal "obligation" referenced.

Such a dump is specific to that wiki. If the wiki is public, then it's likely public. If the wiki is private, then it's not public. - While that might be the optimum solution for the public wikis, it would be a breach of privacy for the private wikis. Robkelk (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Proposal 1, Option E: Petition for entry to the Wikimedia Foundation stable of projects. [edit | edit source]- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it.

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. Support E (WMF) [edit | edit source]- WMF already hosts a number of Wikis,already has a non-profit status and for most practical reasons is technology compatible. A merger, migration of an external wiki has already happened with Wikivoyage. This proposal would involve the Miraheze side making a formal approach the Wikimedia Foundation (and community) for 'adoption' or migration .

At this stage it should be clarified that there have been NO communications or discussions of this nature to my knowledge as proposer of this option. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Clarifications ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - 💪 💪 Strengthliest support!! This is definitely a real possibility and totally feasible in the timespan available, and not something WMF will prima facie refuse.

Labster (talk) 21:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Abstain E (WMF) [edit | edit source]- Whether this can happen, is desired by WMF to happen, or even is or is not a good idea, it's highly unlikely that we'd get any buy-in from WMF for this to happen before this RfC expires. Thus, this is hypothetical possibility rather than a practical alternative. --Robkelk (talk) 20:04, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Oppose E (WMF) [edit | edit source]- Strongest oppose MH is better off without all the political baggage and bureaucracy of WMF.

Rob Kam (talk) 19:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Oppose Even if Wikimedia were to accept this (which I am confident they won't because of the stark differences that exist between us in terms of the content we host), the process would take way too long, like a decade or more long; Miraheze won't even exist by that time.

Redmin Contributions CentralAuth (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Strongest oppose per above Commetian Empire (Talk°•◇•°CentralAuth) 21:01, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] Comments E (WMF) [edit | edit source]- Has any conversation actually been had with representatives of the WikiMedia Foundation to gauge their interest in such an action? I'm not opposed to considering this route, but until WMF representatives have expressly confirmed their interest and intent to follow through, this option is likely dead-on-arrival given past MH relations...

NotAracham (talk • contribs • global) 18:55, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Just because WMF has added a single wiki in the past doesn't indicate that they will or won't add an entire wiki hosting service with hundreds of wikis. We would need to know whether they have any interest in this before it becomes a viable alternative... and I doubt we can get that reply before this RfC's deadline in 105 hours (as of when this comment was added).

Robkelk (talk) 19:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. Comments that were added after the section was closed have been moved to below this line. - Support Regardless of the heavy lobbying, infiltration, and subversion of this voting from WikiForge employees, I am all for any possibility of actual archives and non-profit status.

While WMF is likely to refuse Miraheze because they are not a wikifarm, and the Randian Jimmy Wales already founded Fandom when he realized he couldn't properly exploit Wikipedia, at least this would allow a real continuity of the projects. Nothing is gained by not asking. Nothing is lost by asking. PS: Why is "sarcastic support" even an option? --NimoStar (talk) 00:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - While "sarcastic support" may be a joke, the reality is this proposal is not likely valid.

Unless there is agreement from Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) to begin a wiki farm service like Miraheze, there's not much chance WMF would seriously entertain this option. On top of that, the option has been closed as "unfeasible" – Jph2 (talk) 00:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - NimoStar, please present the evidence that you have of "heavy lobbying, infiltration, and subversion of this voting from WikiForge employees". That is a very serious allegation and, without evidence, could result in court action.

Robkelk (talk) 01:29, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - Respectfully, what even is this comment? The fact that WMF is unlikely to accept this proposal is already damning enough for the proposal and would send us back where we are already; proving a fruitless endeavor overall. --Blad (t • c • g) 02:49, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] - The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

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Requests for Comment/Changes to Requests for Comment Policy - Miraheze Meta?

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